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D&D 5E 5th edition Forgotten Realms: Why can't you just ignore the lore?

Dausuul

Legend
Then the 10th level wizard and 11th level sorcerer/ranger told me "No, we will get the symbol to handle this."
my response was "Who?"

I was told it was the sorcerer queen of the kingdom about to be steam rolled, so I flipped ot the book, and read the region write up, but not her stats... I started playing her as not as powerful as the PCs, and not having the ability to help... then BOOM... sorry she is a chosen as powerful as Elmunchkin...

well then I changed to "She is too busy, other" and it was thrown in my face that she hates they and is a good aligned ruler... so yea...
Yeah, this is the number one thing that grinds my gears about the Realms: It's crawling with high-powered good-aligned NPCs. Any sensible group of PCs, facing a villain who outclasses them power-wise, is naturally going to look around to see if they can recruit allies, and if you're going by the book, they can't chuck a rock without hitting an epic-level hero. Then the DM has to scramble to find an excuse for why the epic-level hero can't just waltz in and fix everything. Usually this excuse involves the hero having to deal with a bigger threat someplace else, which of course devalues whatever the PCs are doing.

However, there is another solution available: Just say the epic-level hero is off having sex with Elminster. It's a pretty safe bet that the lore backs you up*. (If the epic-level hero is Elminster, then he's off having sex with... well, pretty much anybody.) You can also use this excuse when PCs are trying to use spells like contact other plane or commune and you need a reason why the god in question isn't giving helpful answers.

[SIZE=-2]*Unless the adventure is set in Icewind Dale. In that case, you can say the epic-level hero is going through a psychotic episode and killing anything that moves. Clever PCs can turn this to their advantage, of course.[/SIZE]
 
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Yeah, this is the number one thing that grinds my gears about the Realms: It's crawling with high-powered good-aligned NPCs. Any sensible group of PCs, facing a villain who outclasses them power-wise, is naturally going to look around to see if they can recruit allies, and if you're going by the book, they can't chuck a rock without hitting an epic-level hero. Then the DM has to scramble to find an excuse for why the epic-level hero can't just waltz in and fix everything. Usually this excuse involves the hero having to deal with a bigger threat someplace else, which of course devalues whatever the PCs are doing.

+1,000,000
 

Nebulous

Legend
Yeah, this is the number one thing that grinds my gears about the Realms: It's crawling with high-powered good-aligned NPCs. Any sensible group of PCs, facing a villain who outclasses them power-wise, is naturally going to look around to see if they can recruit allies, and if you're going by the book, they can't chuck a rock without hitting an epic-level hero. Then the DM has to scramble to find an excuse for why the epic-level hero can't just waltz in and fix everything. Usually this excuse involves the hero having to deal with a bigger threat someplace else, which of course devalues whatever the PCs are doing.

Yeah, if you follow canon then there really are 18th level + NPCs coming out of the woodwork. I admit having our group meet some Harpers and Elminster and the Simbul long ago, but it never got to be too much of a problem, I think I downplayed their usefulness, Hell, one time I had the PCs rescue Drizzt from a cage where he'd been captured by a black dragon. He was a one-off thing, just name dropping and I don't think we ever followed up on it.
 

Irennan

Explorer
I must say that, while I agree that the FR does indeed exaggerate with the number of highly powerful NPCs, what you are pointing out could happen anywhere. It is just natural that if you are a low or mid level adventurer there are going to be people who are more powerful, knowledgeable and experienced than you. It goes with playing in a world that is ''living'', it doesn't spin around the PCs, it has its own forces, factions and people who work for their own goals and interests. And why is it so unbelievable that some of those individuals are not total asses and employ their resources and knowledge to protect what they love?

On the other hand, in a world there are going to be powerful threats, and some of them can't be handled by low or mid level PCs, but it is obvious that -in a ''believable'' (forgive this expression) context- they won't wait until the adventurers are skilled enough to face them in order to act. So (assuming a stereotypical campaign ''save the world/region from X'') the idea to have powerful 'good people' that can stand up to them is not a bad one, they will prevent the big bads from crushing the world, but they won't ever be powerful enough to defeat them, and that's where the PCs come in (after they have gathered enough strength and weakened the big bad organizations, to the point of being able to put an end to them, in a way or another).

You say that it 'diminishes' the work of the PCs, but 1)the good guys can't be everywhere at the same time 2)again, the PCs will be facing threats adequate to their experience, some other NPC will be 'holding' a bigger threat, but they will be struggling against it, needing the PCs' help (assuming that the players want to take part in that, ofc). For example, level 7 PCs could be acting to destroy sharran influence in a region, but they won't ever be able to attack the city of Shade directly. Other people need to keep it in check, in order to prevent them from wiping everything, but their efforts wouldn't be enough and the shades would be slowly but surely advancing their agenda. That until the PCs are able to contribute to a direct attack, taking the spotlight.

Removing so many iconic characters from FR was a bad idea (they and their deities are iconic for a reason), because they could have used a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer. Instead of killing them, they could have introduced an event to weaken them to the point where they would absolutely need the PCs, even at lower levels, because they would be struggling to do what they want to. If Mystra (or any other deity) was that much of a problem, then lessening their influence would have been a way better option than removing them. IMO this would have allowed them to satisfy both old fans and people who couldn't bring themselves to ignore the 'big guns' and wanted them neutralized.
 
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MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to just ignore the lore and use what they want. Why can't I have a thick FR guide with loads of the iconic detail that it's known for? I mean it's a win win for everyone and not just the sparse side.

The problem with the lore isn't really there for home games. It's there for designers.

Whenever you write anything for the Realms, you have to make it all fit into the established lore. Given the howls of outrage over the Rise of Tiamat storyline - which aren't even well-founded - you can see the problem. When the Realms become a place that new designers can't write for, you have a major problem.
 

Sailor Moon

Banned
Banned
The problem with the lore isn't really there for home games. It's there for designers.

Whenever you write anything for the Realms, you have to make it all fit into the established lore. Given the howls of outrage over the Rise of Tiamat storyline - which aren't even well-founded - you can see the problem. When the Realms become a place that new designers can't write for, you have a major problem.

It's very easy to add stuff into the Realms without wrecking the gaff. The problem is the kinds of stuff you add to it. Some things already have am established background so you have to be careful, other things have always had just a sneak peek which makes it easier to make up something to where it could fit no problem.
 

HobbitFan

Explorer
Lore can be a strength too. History can give players and DMs lots of cool ideas for backgrounds, adventures, etc.

edit: Honestly, lore is only a problem and hangup if you let it be.

I studied history in College. If I'm writing about WWII, I don't have to know nor would I expect my readers to know everything about the entire span of human history. You only have to know the things relevant to the participants and to elucidating larger trends, movements, etc. that events might connect too. World War I and especially its aftermath in Europe is very relevant to understand how WWII started. The battle of Thermopylae less so.

The problem with the 4E Realms was they took a sledgehammer to the Realms, destroying pretty much indescriminately with no thought to replacing what they nuked with other interesting things. Make it too generic, too bare bones and Dms/players don't have anyhting to excite their imagination.
 
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Hussar

Legend
And that is HOW you're supposed to play D&D! Good job my friend. You're right, ignore the lore, use what you like and forget the rest. The maps of the Realms were always my favorite parts anyway, and the sheer size dotted with interesting locales begging to be explored.

Sounds like a very boring campaign when the world reshapes itself to always give what the players/pcs need or want and the only challenges seemingly are those you specifically put into and plan for. Where is the dynamic in that?

ROTFLMAO. The fact that these two quotes are back to back just makes me giggle.

How dare the DM not cleave to canon! I just had a rather lengthy argument with a number of posters about a player who insisted on canon while the DM wanted to change it. I was told that no body would ever want to force the DM to stick to canon. Guess they were wrong. :D

What a terrible DM for making a ruling on the fly that makes sense - Candlekeep IS on the coast after all, it's not a totally unrealistic assumption to think that it has a port - and keep the game going rather than grinding it to a halt and forcing the players to ponce about for however long it takes them to go to a different town and get a boat.
[MENTION=6775925]Jaelommiss[/MENTION] - you did exactly the right thing that you should have done. You are well on your way to being a great DM. Arbitrary road blocks just for the sake of roadblocking is never the right answer.
 

Hussar

Legend
It's very easy to add stuff into the Realms without wrecking the gaff. The problem is the kinds of stuff you add to it. Some things already have am established background so you have to be careful, other things have always had just a sneak peek which makes it easier to make up something to where it could fit no problem.

The problem is Sailor Moon, that fans of the setting have proven to have a fairly weak grasp on "established background". [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] already proved to you, more than once, that Tiamat has long been part of FR, as has Tharizdun and the Elder Evil.

Funny how "wrecking the gaff" means, "Stuff I personally don't like, regardless of quality", whenever this sort of discussion comes up.
 

Derren

Hero
Guess they were wrong.

Guess again.
Its not that the DM deviates from the Canon, it is that he deviates from it just so he can give the players exactly what they need and no other reason. Some people like this sugar coated gamestyle but I find it boring.

Funny how "wrecking the gaff" means, "Stuff I personally don't like, regardless of quality", whenever this sort of discussion comes up.

Really funny considering that the point that Tiamat & Co still are completely "out of character" so to speak in the new realms as they, while they existed, where never very prominent, especially not to make them the huge threats displayed in the adventures still stands. And then there is of course the much quoted lore wreck about Tiamat being imprisoned which WotC copied from Eberron.

And there is also the issue with the lore we have about the Sundering so far revolves around the gods becoming more distant and Ao personally putting them into place to stop all the chaos. And what is the first storyline? An attempt of summoning minor god directly into the Realms so that she can run rampant which is the complete opposite how gods should behave in 5E according to the sundering lore.
 
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