D&D 5E Spell interaction conundrum

[damnbul]

Make the space between the wall and the lever dead magic. Where you cant use magic, but can physically pull it.

 

[Umbran]

You guys are over thinking it. If the problem is Mage Hand, which can lift 10 pounds, have the lever require 20 pounds of force to flip. Done.

 

[SirAntoine]

Does Wall of Force stop a Mage Hand (in 5e)? If not, what WOULD stop Mage Hand from being able to be used to flip a lever that is visible, but located beyond a wall of force?

Relevant spell texts:

MH says "a spectral floating hand appears at a point you choose within range."

WoF says "Nothing can physically pass through the wall."

So is a spectral hand (which CAN interact with physical objects, and can lift up to 10 lbs of weight) really physical? Or not? And if not, what could block it?

This is important because of a trap in a module I'm converting to 5e, which is, the way it is written, totally dependent on the wall of force to keep everyone out.

The Mage Hand would start on the other side of the wall, but once there it couldn't move back through the wall to you. So to pull a lever it will work, but to bring keys to you it won't. The only thing that would block the mage hand would be a form of anti-magic or a "dispel magic", or if the lever is tough and requires more than ten pounts of pressure.

 

[Dausuul]

If I recall correctly, one of the designers was asked about this and said that wall of force is supposed to block spells. So that would prevent mage hand from being cast across the barrier.

Failing that, just replace the lever with something heavy (11+ pounds) that has to be lifted to disengage the trap.

 

[SirAntoine]

If I recall correctly, one of the designers was asked about this and said that wall of force is supposed to block spells. So that would prevent mage hand from being cast across the barrier.

Failing that, just replace the lever with something heavy (11+ pounds) that has to be lifted to disengage the trap.

Unlikely. They are very technical with all their words in the new edition. The Wall of Force stops anything from physically passing through it, and it extends in the Ethereal so an incorporeal monster like a ghost there couldn't pass through it, either. As the spell is worded, it would stop fireball but not fire storm, for example. The wall stops "movement" through it, by any physical being or physical energy. To even say it stops energy and not only matter is in itself a leap I am making, but I know from past editions that it did that.

If the designers made a mistake with the wall, they need to make it official errata.

 

[the Jester]

Could you just put the lever out of sight? Like, around a corner, behind a screen, something like that?

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Who says the lever they see has to be real? Or even a lever?

I've used a few custom torch holders that look like levers in the past. They bend down for easy insertion of the torch for short people.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Unlikely. They are very technical with all their words in the new edition. ...
If the designers made a mistake with the wall, they need to make it official errata.

I do not think you are describing 5e here. Errata and attempts at precise writing are in past editions; this one has a lot of sloppiness ("natural language") and if you want this sort of precision, 5e isn't your game.

Personally, I prefer what we have now.

Now to the question:

Wall of force is a 5th level spell; mage hand a cantrip. Generally, wall of force should be more effective. I understand not wanting mage hand to defeat this trap, but you are assuming (a) that there's a wizard who has mage hand among their cantrips (this won't be the case in every party anyways), and (b) that the wizard will be on the "right" side of the wall in any case. Since line of sight blocks things, you can always have it around-a-corner, under-a-shroud, requiring 11lbs force, etc. But you should also remember that -- eventually -- you do want your players to get past it.

If mage hand makes this trap easier to bypass, then the next trap, which requires ray of frost or mending, will not be easily overcome.

 

[SirAntoine]

I do not think you are describing 5e here. Errata and attempts at precise writing are in past editions; this one has a lot of sloppiness ("natural language") and if you want this sort of precision, 5e isn't your game.

Personally, I prefer what we have now.

I disagree based on what I've read so far. I only have the PHB, but personally, I'd like to see more natural language. Words have technical meanings I wouldn't expect them to, and in the books I would have thought they had enough space to be more descriptive.

 

[Ashrym]

Does Wall of Force stop a Mage Hand (in 5e)? If not, what WOULD stop Mage Hand from being able to be used to flip a lever that is visible, but located beyond a wall of force?

Relevant spell texts:

MH says "a spectral floating hand appears at a point you choose within range."

WoF says "Nothing can physically pass through the wall."

So is a spectral hand (which CAN interact with physical objects, and can lift up to 10 lbs of weight) really physical? Or not? And if not, what could block it?

This is important because of a trap in a module I'm converting to 5e, which is, the way it is written, totally dependent on the wall of force to keep everyone out.

"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell... A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle." PHB pg 196
"To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover." PHB pg 204

Mage hand appears at a target location within range. Wall of force should stop spells based on cover (regardless of lack of obscurement). As long as there are no openings for the hand to float through it should be good to disallow.