D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[GMforPowergamers]

Dude my point was that I'm not going to sit here and continuously keep building stuff in 5e to counter each of your claims... go read the PHB and afterwards if you really believe that you can't create a non-caster with as much complexity as a caster (let's say a warlock), especially in play using maneuvers,feats, skills, etc... well I'll chalk that up to the fact that my creativity must be letting me see things you aren't and leave it at that.

well my players tried to play a fighter... we were level 17 or 18 and the battlemaster fighter with lots of special feats and the wizard was built using the basic rules... the wizard still blew the fighter out of the water... when I did post this info the number 1 thing I was told was that I "nerfed" the wizard too much... even though the problem was it was too overblown...

 

[Sadras]

You tell him an army of orcs are going to invade the town, his answer is "I lift a big rock and divert the river flooding the plain they are on" what do you say?

A group of strangely dressed humans, an animated armour suit and a green ogre-like beast suddenly appear near him, one of the humans, carrying a multi-coloured shield with an emblem of a star upon it, approaches him and asks if he'd like to join their adventuring party.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A group of strangely dressed humans, an animated armour suit and a green ogre-like beast suddenly appear near him, one of them, carrying a multi-coloured shield with an emblem of a star upon it, approaches him and asks if he'd like to join their adventuring party.

I am super confused... is this based on one of the Hercules movies? maybe a cartoon?

was this supposed to be a response to me, in this thread?

 

[Sadras]

(carrying on from where I left off)
...The 4th level PC bewildered at the sight of these strange-looking beings ignores the shield-bearer's question and instead replies with a question of his own "Who are you?"

The blonde man smiles warmly, "Of course, where are my manners? Forgive me." He takes off his right hand glove and extends his hand, "My name is Steve Rogers. These," and he points to the others, "are my companions..."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

(carrying on from where I left off)
...The 4th level PC bewildered at the sight of these strange-looking beings ignores the shield-bearer's question and instead replies with a question of his own "Who are you?"

The blonde man smiles warmly, "Of course, where are my manners? Forgive me." He takes off his right hand glove and extends his hand, "My name is Steve Rogers. These," and he points to the others, "are my companions..."

um... what does my question have to do with the avengers...

 

[Imaro]

well my players tried to play a fighter... we were level 17 or 18 and the battlemaster fighter with lots of special feats and the wizard was built using the basic rules... the wizard still blew the fighter out of the water... when I did post this info the number 1 thing I was told was that I "nerfed" the wizard too much... even though the problem was it was too overblown...

Wait you're loosing me now... Do you just want more complexity or more power for the non-casters? Earlier you said complexity but this post seems to infer power... which one are you speaking too? I can't see you wanting to add complexity to classes just for complexity's sake... SO I'm going to assume it's a power thing...

That said... I think the problem you and your players may be having is that they want to do the things magic does as a non-magical character. Or they want to represent what I like to call a magically enhanced character (say your previous example of Hercules, or heroes like Beowulf, Gilgamesh or even ... basically mythological magical heroes... well the thing is spells are the magic of the D&D roleplaying game thus if you want to play magically endowed martial characters... they use the magic system of D&D, that is spells...

 

[Sadras]

um... what does my question have to do with the avengers...

You asked (not me of course, but I answered) what if a 4th level PC performed a 'herculean feat' solely on a 20 strength- well then, according to my personal preference, its time to open the Mutants & Masterminds books and pack the D&D books away.

You could also do as @Imaro suggests, so you keep the setting and instead imbue your non-casters with magical powers if that's what your group prefers. Otherwise uncap the ability limits for the PCs and define for your campaign what a level 21 or above strength/dexterity...etc can do, perhaps in a similar vein to White Wolf's system which offers a basic description.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Wait you're loosing me now... Do you just want more complexity or more power for the non-casters? Earlier you said complexity but this post seems to infer power... which one are you speaking too? I can't see you wanting to add complexity to classes just for complexity's sake... SO I'm going to assume it's a power thing...

That said... I think the problem you and your players may be having is that they want to do the things magic does as a non-magical character. Or they want to represent what I like to call a magically enhanced character (say your previous example of Hercules, or heroes like Beowulf, Gilgamesh or even ... basically mythological magical heroes... well the thing is spells are the magic of the D&D roleplaying game thus if you want to play magically endowed martial characters... they use the magic system of D&D, that is spells...

the second part is what we are looking for, a supernatural non spellcaster would be great, and again 3.5 had Bo9S and 4e did it in the core...

 

[SirAntoine]

in 4e could I make:

a warrior who was an archer: YES
a warrior who is quick and agle: YES
a warrior who could buff and heal: YES
a warrior as complex and powerful as any caster at above 1/2 way through max level: YES

in 5e can you make:

a warrior who was an archer: YES
a warrior who is quick and agle: YES
a warrior who could buff and heal: Maybe
a warrior as complex and powerful as any caster at above 1/2 way through max level: not on a bet


but 4e was the restrictive one ????

I don't see the appeal of a warrior who is as complex and powerful as any caster. Don't you believe magic is more powerful than might?

 

[SirAntoine]

please reread this discussion, because somewhere you lost it...








so to make sure that you reread it, let me recap... I said high level casters are still both more powerful and more complex then fighters, you responded that fighters can be casters, I pointed out that I wanted non casters as complex, and your answer makes no sense...


Odysseys, Conan, Batman, Hercules all use physical and mental abilities (you can call them skills, maneuvers, feats. talents, faints, powers) and routenly out play people with more(in the case of Hercules more in the others any is more) supernatural powers... but in D&D (extept 3.5 Bo9S, and 4e) that doesn't happen... there is no way to make an engaging option full complex non caster... it doesn't have to be a fighter (hell look at my orginal post in this string it says warrior).

That's simply untrue. I have DMed those previous editions and they take care of it much better in my opinion.