D&D 4E JamesonCourage's First 4e Session

I've used 3 methods for magic items. Treasure parcels that the players have given me an idea they wanted . These I level with the pcs.
I could do this, but I don't think that some of my players would appreciate it at all. One would like it, but all of the rest of them tend to like the "DM handles the rest of the world outside my character" style of play. So I'm more than a little hesitant to use this method with this particular group.
I create and modify magic items.
Is there an easy way to do this on the character builder? I already have somewhat of a hard time using actual magic items on there as-is (especially artifacts).
And I use a random treasure generator.
I could do this. It might at least give me inspiration, even if I wouldn't use it like I would in other editions.
I use inherent bonus and I can keep the treasures interesting because I don't have to worry about the math.
This is what I've been doing (inherent bonuses), but I'm coming up against a wall now. My players are already amassing an amount of powers that means they rarely-to-never use some as it stands now, so I'm hesitant to add more.

On the other hand, it's really tedious to carefully plan out "and your alternative reward goes from level 4 to level 9, meaning you can teleport one more square" or something. I have to figure out "do I have a level 9 magic item to give? If not, can I mess with the rest of the wealth to swing the difference? etc." It's wearing on me.

So for now, I just threw gold at the players. They've already started spending it on building projects, so I'm hoping this will inspire me when looking over rewards in the future. I'm not 100% how I feel going forward, but I feel better than I did before running my session.
 

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So, in the last session, the PCs stepped into the blackflame, which is going to transport them to the fortress of a death knight on another plane. As the death knight serves Asmodeus, I assume that the players will be going to a secluded spot in The Nine Hells. However, I'm extremely shaky on 4e cosmology, but I do have these bits to go by from way back before I even started my game:
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4e Cosmology 101.

The PCs generally start off in the normal world/Prime Material Plane - which is the way you'd expect it to be.

The easiest realm to access from there is the Feywild - otherwise known as Faerie, the land of the Seelie, or the land of the Bright Court. Larger than life, brighter than life, more dangerous than life. Going through a fairy ring can be very dangerous. (The branch of Elves that live in the Feywild are known as Eladrin, and the small tricksters who are heavily outgunned are gnomes).

As well as the Faewild being the bright and slightly hard edged reflection, there's the Shadowfell - otherwise known as Unseelie, the land of the Dark Court or the Winter Court. Most plots that worked in the Underdark in previous editions have decamped to the Shadowfell in 4e, but it's more eldritch and spooky.

For both, play up the eldritch aspects and how they are simmilar to the real world but not quite like it. (One thing to do is if someone fails three death saves on the Shadowfell, have them keep playing - until they try to leave).

4e also has an Underdark. Most people ignore it. And they definitely ignore the Shadowfell's reflection of the Underdark known as the Shadedark. Narratively the Shadowfell works better for most of this.

There's also the Astral Sea, the Elemental Chaos, Sigil, and various other places when you want to go further afield.

The Far Realm can come up or not as the case may be. It isn't part of the universe so much as outside it - and the home of Cthulu and other Old Ones. (OK, so Cthulu isn't actually namechecked.) A number of the older, wierder monsters like Beholders and Aboleths come from the Far Realm; Ilithids came from there so long ago they're basically naturalised.

Then there are Demons and Devils. In 4e there's a concrete difference between the two. Devils main problem with the world is that they aren't running things. They are inside the system and seduce and tempt - the archetypal devils are succubi and people who offer you contracts for your soul. Demons, on the other hand, just want to watch the world burn and had to be kicked out into the abyss (which means that when all else fails devils will hold the line against demons - they are normally no keener on the end of the world than anyone else is). The archetypal Demon is the Maw Demon - a mouth on legs that chomps everyone indiscriminately. (And Angels are servitors loyal to their god; evil gods still have Angels).

Primordials - I don't know how well you know your Greek Myth, but Primordials are to 4e what the Titans are to the Greek Gods - the previous, cruel pantheon that they needed to throw out. And because a fully manifested Primordial is stronger than a God the Gods originally banded together like adventuring parties to do this. (And when they were done, the Primal Spirits locked them out of the Prime Material Plane because they might not have made as much of a mess as the Primordials, but still made quite a mess).

I'll also give a slightly spoilery, slightly personal and slightly truncated view of the cosmology for 4E.

In the beginning, the Primordials made the multiverse. Not the gods - the Primordials. Then they decided to destroy it. You see, to them, the world(s) approximate plasticine, or Lego. You build something neat, then you want to break it all down to see what else you can build.

Problem was, by then the gods had decided they really liked what had been built - and had added to it (things like intelligent living beings and such). So they objected to the slate being wiped clean - and thus the Dawn War began.

When the dust had settled, the Primordials were all imprisoned or dead and the Primal spirits had formed a "cease fire line" that kept both gods and Primordials out of the Material plane. The gods weren't what you would call harmonious (the 'evil' ones and the devils fight the 'good' ones all the time), but the main conflict was finished - but for one thing. The surviving primordials (or rather, some of their creatures/juniors) had thrown a huge hissy fit, which became embodied (never mind how, for now) in a "shard of pure evil" that pierced the cosmos to its outer skin and, in doing so, formed the Abyss. So that's where demons come from.

So these are the "sides": the gods (with sub-sides within their own ranks), the devils (who hate the gods, but hate the demons/primordials more), the demons (who hate the cosmos, and want to see it ended just like daddy intended), the primal spirits (who, with druid and other allies try to protect the material plane from all these immortal lunatics) and the (few) remaining primordials that are not corrupted by the Thing that's at the heart of the abyss.

Feywild: it houses both the Seelie *and* the Unseelie Fey. The good and the bad. The eladrins and the hags. The Feywild's Underdark (Feydark) houses the kingdoms of the misshapen fomorians, and there is a goblin kingdom there, too.

Shadowfell: this is the realm of the dead, at least until they reach a more final destination (which may be a god's dominion, or reincarnation, no one knows for sure). It has its own Underdark (Shadowdark). Unlike the Feywild, there is little "good" here.

The Abyss: this cancer at the bottom of existence was created by Tharizdum, the mad god, who planted there the Heart of the Abyss, a shard of pure evil. The Heart corrupted the Elemental Chaos around it, creating a "funnel" that is draining away existence into oblivion (some say the entire Elemental Chaos is slowly rotating into this maelstrom). The elementals caught within the influence zone of the Heart became demons, and the Primordials there became Demon Lords, and they want nothing better than to see the universe burn.
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As of this point, I'm open to suggestions. I know I want the death knight to have his own small fortress, with some guards and the like there (undead that he can bolster, etc.), but that I don't want it too big or grand. Based on past editions, this seems right for about the first layer of The Nine Hells, but I'm not sure about any differences in this edition's cosmology.

If the death knight does have his fortress there, anything I should keep in mind? Fun stuff to add? If he doesn't, where would you put it? Shadowfell because he's undead? I wouldn't think so, but, again, I don't know the cosmology as well. If his fortress is somewhere other than The Nine Hells, where should it be? What should I keep in mind for it?

Any help is appreciated. I've already tagged some people by quoting them, above, so maybe a couple others... [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]? [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]? [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]? [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]?
 

[MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]

A death knight on the Nine Hells in the service of Asmodeus seems fine to me. Do you have a 4e MM? It has a little precis of each Hell in the "devils" entry - your secluded castle seems like it might fit well on Minauros, the third, swampy hell where - according to 4e's MotP - corruption holds sway: attacks with the disease or poison keyword gain a +1 bonus to the attack roll, and healing powers restore only half as many hit points as normal.

Putting the death knight on the Shadowfell would seem equally viable if you want to go that way: devils like to harvest souls, and aren't above kidnapping stray souls which never entered into pacts with them. So a servant of Asmodeus might hang out on the Shadowfell and try to pick up stray souls.

Also, a response to [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] that is probably N years too late, for some large-ish value of N: in my game I've used the Underdark (from around 16th to around 23rd level, the PCs were there the whole time) and then the PCs went back into the Underdark and followed a map to the Shadowdark to defeat Torog and destroy his Soul Abattoir.

(Just saying.)
 


Baator, AKA Hell, in the 4e cosmology is an astral domain which is a prison. The devils are incarcerated there in repayment for the crime of rebelling against their god. They were originally angels, paralleling biblical Hell. Asmodeus was the author of this betrayal, he's just as imprisoned as all the other devils, none of them can voluntarily leave, though apparently their prison is far from perfect.

Its certainly quite possible for a Death Knight to be ensconced in Hell, OTOH Asmodeus probably values servants that are NOT locked in prison far more than ones which are. In fact the primary way that devils get out of prison is to be summoned by some servant or other from another plane. So the Shadowfell idea would certainly be a good one. Beyond that there are of course many possibilities, the Astral Sea is full of various little domains and such, and most of the Elemental Chaos is just wild empty landscape where a guy can build a nice castle and kick up his feet.

You could use the Shadowfell and cast this as a 'Domain of Dread' ala Ravenloft. Nobody has really ever explained the nature of these domains exactly, but each one has some sort of dark lord trapped within it. Most of them would probably like to escape, though they may or may not really be able to due to their nature.

I'd note that the Shadowfell is not actually an inherently evil place as Pemerton seemed to suggest. It is simply the land of shadow. Things there are often echoes of the material world, and the spirits of the dead cross this shadow realm on their way to their fate. OTOH there are towns and cities of living humans, shadar kai, and other beings who live in the Shadowfell. Its a gloomy place, filled with a kind of ennui, tinged with a kind of hopeless madness, but its not a dead world.

In fact most of the Domains contain communities of living people, such as Barovia where Straad of Ravenloft fame resides. Your Death Knight could well be such a lord, holding sway over a domain that he rules in the name of his liege, the Lord of Tyranny and Deception.

There's another part of the backstory of Asmodeus too BTW. The Shard of Evil which created the Abyss originated in another universe, a dead universe in which ultimate evil prevailed. Tharizdun merely PLANTED it, and was then himself lost in the Abyss with the shard. However, some certain group of Angels was set up to guard the shard, or the place where you could access the final pit where Tharizdun presumably carried it. Asmodeus was in charge of this detail IIRC. In any case he managed to acquire a fragment of the shard. The demon's unrelenting hostility to devils stems from their desire to recover this only bit of ultimate evil which they can access. There's a plot hook in which the demon lord Pazuzu (one of the entities from the dead universe perhaps) has some sort of an alliance with Asmodeus, or Asmo owes him one, etc. The point is they built in some hooks you can use to create plot twists that involve demons and devils and their unhappy evil family relationships.
 

Lots of help so far, everyone. Thank you. I'd reply individually but I'm on my way out the door.

Basically, I have zero books. No PHB, DMG, MM, etc. No splats, no modules from any edition ever, etc. I do have DDI, though, so I can look stuff up there if anything really stands out. I can also look up stuff online if pointed the right direction (Shadowfell realms, Minauros, Scriv's links, etc.). So, thank you for the feedback so far. I'll try looking up some stuff later and maybe bouncing some ideas off of you guys a little more. In the meantime, if something inspired crosses your path, let me know, please :)
 

I could do this, but I don't think that some of my players would appreciate it at all. One would like it, but all of the rest of them tend to like the "DM handles the rest of the world outside my character" style of play. So I'm more than a little hesitant to use this method with this particular group.

My way of dealing with this is to determine from the player what their characters favorite type of weapon is, as an example. Then I make sure that when I use the random generator it covers that particular parcel. I don't spend a lot of time with this since inherent bonus is the method to close the gap.

When I talk about leveling treasures with the characters I mean that I'll start adding properties to the equipment as the characters level so as to make the equipment much more interesting.

I had one player that really wanted his character to be a master of stealth and he described to me this "overly" powerful magic cloak. It was only "overly" powerful because of his current level (I think 3rd). So I took that description and broke it down into simple mechanics that I could add at specific intervals. In essence the cloak would reveal more of its secrets as he leveled. So it kept pace with the power level of the character. Some of these things were mechanical and many were actually not. For example the first power he found was that the cloaked character did not cast a shadow. After that the cloak granted a +2 to Stealth checks. I think it added a +2 to NAD next, etc. Over time that became one of his most prized magic items. And the bonus was that I did not have to think too hard on it.

Is there an easy way to do this on the character builder? I already have somewhat of a hard time using actual magic items on there as-is (especially artifacts).

I use the offline character builder and customize the crap out of it. I'm not sure to what level of customization the online one was taken. I stopped using it because of it's online only requirement. For the longest time we played at a friend's pool table and it's location was not wireless friendly meaning all the online tools were unreachable. Once I got the offline one to update locally I never looked back. Did the same with the compendium eventually.

What I'd actually recommend is to create a template for magic items in something like MS Word. Then add what you want and give it to the player. I don't see a real reason for attempting to track that in the CB, particularly if the bonuses are rather easy to jot down on their sheet. The CB is super convenient but nothing there is so difficult that a player or DM can't easily jot it down on the sheet.

I could do this. It might at least give me inspiration, even if I wouldn't use it like I would in other editions.
Here are links to 2 random treasure generators that I've used extensively. Asmor's is very cool because you can filter for specific books. For example if you don't want players to get anything from the Eberron books you can drop them from the selection. The donjon is very helpful if you want to populate an entire level because you can tell it how many treasure hoards to generate for the particular level. Presto, changeo, treasure for all encounters until the character's level.

http://www.asmor.com/scripts/4eMagicItems/randomTreasure.php

http://donjon.bin.sh/4e/treasure/

This is what I've been doing (inherent bonuses), but I'm coming up against a wall now. My players are already amassing an amount of powers that means they rarely-to-never use some as it stands now, so I'm hesitant to add more.
Totally understandable. That is why I take the time to add "odd" powers such as the one about the shadow above. It does not add anything mechanical for the characters to forget, but it is cool when they do use it.

On the other hand, it's really tedious to carefully plan out "and your alternative reward goes from level 4 to level 9, meaning you can teleport one more square" or something. I have to figure out "do I have a level 9 magic item to give? If not, can I mess with the rest of the wealth to swing the difference? etc." It's wearing on me.
I would say forget about the carefully balanced treasure hoard or rewards, particularly since inherent bonus already handles some of the heavy lifting. The game is rather difficult to break, and bends quite well. As long as the characters are still "hittable" then you can pretty much ramp up the opposition to match. If they are unhittable at level 8, eventually they will go to level 9, 10, etc. and the tables will turn.

My thought process mostly goes something like this - Is the item cool? Is it no more than one level above their level? Then no problem. What if they do have 5 level 8 items at level 6? They are only going to use one at a time. If they decide to disenchant and move the enchantment elsewhere then so be it. If you use the random generator and don't want the hassle of buying selling magic items figure out which item each character likes. Then whenever you roll an item of a different level either level their current item, or give them the new one. Or better yet see if you can combine some of the properties of them. Also don't forget about consumables (potions, alchemical items, etc.), rituals, and martial practices. These serve as great padding.

I think you might be finding it tedious because of your desire to stick closely to the rules. My recommendation, don't worry so much. Go crazy. 4e magic can be too clinical, let loose a bit. The game is quite flexible and this can be great fun.

For example let's say you want to plan stuff out a bit. Go to Asmor's treasure generator. Unselect all and only select things that you think the player characters would use, the filter is a little funky so it looks like it resets. Try it a bit. So if you have no monks you might want to drop Ki Focus. No controllers maybe you don't need orb, tome, etc. Drop any sources you don't want to bother looking at. Then select 8 characters of the current level. Submit. You will get a listing of 7 magic items of up to level + 4, and other sundry treasure. Magic items that sound interesting keep, the ones that don't seem so cool reroll. When you're satisfied with the remaining list copy and paste all magic items, not treasure. Do the same several times, and do it for several levels.

When you see an item like lockbust chalk, what comes to mind? Possibly an impenetrable lock. Guess what you just got - some inspiration for an encounter or situation with an impenetrable lock.

After you're done with this go to donjon and generate 4-5 hoards per level. Copy and paste and see if some of the items here sound cooler than the ones you already selected. Then just replace any magic items as you see fit. Keep the treasure from this as it is usually more interesting, and you can tweak it to provide more coins or trade.

It might take a bit of time, but I think that it took me a little over an hour to come up with treasure for 5-6 levels (30+ hours of play), and several items were so inspirational that an encounter arose around them. So 1 hour treasure prep for 30+ hours of gaming. The best part, I had to invest almost zero effort in generating this and I spent no time counting how many coins to get to the center of a dragon's hoard. Take out the tedium and shoot it man!

When the players latched to particular items, like the dwarf and his reverberating axe (I don't remember if that was the name) I just made sure that item was the one I selected to level up.

So for now, I just threw gold at the players. They've already started spending it on building projects, so I'm hoping this will inspire me when looking over rewards in the future. I'm not 100% how I feel going forward, but I feel better than I did before running my session.

I hope what I mentioned above helps you get to a point where this is fun and not tedious. Good luck.
 
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Sorry, been away all day. Been a busy one. Anyway, [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION], that's a really meaty post, so thank you for it. I'll mull some stuff over and see if I want to break a little from 4e's expectations. I've been trying to stick really close to RAW (or some version of it, as it seems the rules differ in different places... see Rules Compendium skill challenges as an example), but if it's going to make me not want to run the game, I'll break that decision in a heartbeat.

Overall, a big problem is that I'm not much of a prep GM in any other game, or any other system. I didn't prep anything for 3.5 when I ran that for years. I don't prep for my other game I'm currently running (which is my own RPG). So even though 4e is supposedly good for GMs in prep time, it's already eating way more time than I'm used to. Luckily, I find the monsters pretty fun to make (since I basically make them all up or tweak them, save for a stint around levels 5-7, I think?), so that part isn't too bad.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. Like I said, I'll think it over and come up with something I like. I'm good at that :)
 

Sorry, been away all day. Been a busy one. Anyway, [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION], that's a really meaty post, so thank you for it. I'll mull some stuff over and see if I want to break a little from 4e's expectations. I've been trying to stick really close to RAW (or some version of it, as it seems the rules differ in different places... see Rules Compendium skill challenges as an example), but if it's going to make me not want to run the game, I'll break that decision in a heartbeat.
No apologies needed. I understand busy schedules.

Every game I run I look at the rules as a draft baseline. If the rule works well in play, I keep it. If the rule doesn't work that well then I'm already looking for ways to modify it, or remove it. It's in my nature and has been that way since before I discovered D&D in late 1979. D&D Basic (Moldvay) was explicit about the rules being guidelines, and that has stuck with me throughout D&D's editions. However, AD&D made a concerted effort to make the rules as written more solid and "official". 3.x went full bore and attempted to make rules for a lot of things, that IMO where not necessarily needed. I've aproached every edition with the same zest for tinkering. 4e just made it a lot easier (tinkering) than other editions save Moldvay.

You are correct that 4e has different versions of the rules in different places. This is because the game kept evolving as people were playing it. Skill challenges in particular needed a lot of work from the first printing/presentation in the DMG, to the last presentation in the Rules Compendium. The Rules Compendium version is better, but it's still not perfect. For me Skill Challenges are one of those things that have kept evolving and I'm perfectly comfortable with tinkering with them.

My suggestion to you is look at the rules as the starting point. If a rule makes no sense in the context of what you, as the DM, are trying to accomplish that day, then either remove it or change it. I normally don't do that on the spot, I think through the problem and come up with possible solutions. I've found 4e extremely robust.

What you as a DM need to think about are the knock-on effects of your rule change. 4e is so transparent in what it is trying to do, that figuring out the knock-on effects (other things that will be affected) becomes fun and easy.

For example I wanted to create long term and short term injuries in the game. Looking at the Healing Surge, Dying Save, and Disease Track mechanics gave me a way to do so. However, the knock-on effects can be varied (shorter adventuring days, characters that lose abilities, etc. ) So I had to use the mechanics sparingly, with the consent of the players, and provide for ways of mitigating them. Nobody wants to have their ranger character (two weapon) lose an arm and not be able to do his "shtick". However, when you mitigate the penalty (modify twin strike, etc.) and make finding a "mechagical" (part mech, part magic) arm replacement a quest then the campaign gets better. The players get more invested in their characters, in the campaign, and everyone has more fun.

Overall, a big problem is that I'm not much of a prep GM in any other game, or any other system. I didn't prep anything for 3.5 when I ran that for years. I don't prep for my other game I'm currently running (which is my own RPG). So even though 4e is supposedly good for GMs in prep time, it's already eating way more time than I'm used to. Luckily, I find the monsters pretty fun to make (since I basically make them all up or tweak them, save for a stint around levels 5-7, I think?), so that part isn't too bad.

I ran 3.x for almost 8 years in organized play, and for my home group. I stopped running it for the reason you mentioned, prep time. So I can see where you are coming from.

With 3.x my main problem was being able to keep the game challenging for the characters as they leveled (up to 8th level the game was OK). The most prep time was creating any NPC, modifying monsters to keep the challenge up (character levels), or having to research (during prep) or look up spell like abilities (during play). Eventually I just got tired of it. I had already started to run 4e and it was an eye opener. I remember running the last BBEG encounter of the campaign and I ran it as a 4e monster instead of a 3.x creature, it was way more satisfying for me, and it worked beautifully. From that moment I was hooked on 4e because it had brought back the desire to run the game again.

Now I spend my prep time in things I enjoy. Coming up with scenarios, making unique magic items, and making unique or modified monsters.

So tinker, the game can take it. And if you break something you'll do it better the next time.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. Like I said, I'll think it over and come up with something I like. I'm good at that :)

Good luck with it. I'm sure you'll have more fun when you start seeing how the game can bend.
 
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(snip) I remember running the last BBEG encounter of the campaign and I ran it as a 4e monster instead of a 3.x creature, it was way more satisfying for me, and it worked beautifully. From that moment I was hooked on 4e because it had brought back the desire to run the game again.(snip)

I had a similar epiphany.

I needed to stat up a CR16 NPC for my 3.5E game and, at that level, it's almost impossible to create a legitimate challenge. You either min/max the hell out of it and destroy the PCs or you create something that lasts 1.5 rounds despite taking 3 hours to stat up. I had seen the 4E stat blocks and had quickly skimmed the section of the DMG involving NPC creation. Just as an exercise - and this is starting from scratch - I thought I would see how long it would take to knock up the equivalent NPC in 4E while also teaching myself the rules. An hour later I had that NPC and, other than the update to the maths post-MMIII, that NPC is still usable today.

And that was the end of 3.5E for me. :)

Anyway, I am interested to read about what [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION] decides to do with his problem as it might be something I will use in the future.
 

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