D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[CapnZapp]

Then you're going to end up with the "Big Six" problem again.

There are items in 5e (like in 3e) that are obviously better than others, even if you set the prices far more narrowly (like 3e/4e did). As long as you have items that directly impact "the numbers" (AC, HP, Attack, Damage), they will always be far more valuable than items of limited or situation value (like Potions of Longevity or a Wand of Secret Door Detection).

If you were interested in comparing the cost of say, a cloak of protection to a cloak of elvenkind, my gut reaction is to price the cloak of protection way above the cloak of elvenkind (say, 5,000 gp for the CoE, but 50,000 for the CoP). There is no way I'd price an item like Gauntlets of Ogre Power for less than a million GP.

I am not sure what problem you see.

Could it be that you think I want any price list to conform to the rarity pricing bands given by the DMG? Then I could make some sense out of you concerns. But why would you think I want to be beholden to that half-arsed 5-minute job of a solution?

You present a problem but you're already onto the true solution.

There will be no "big six" problem if the different abilities are priced well. Precisely as you say yourself, completely ignore the rarity ratings and set your prices according to the real utility of your items. While a million GP is perhaps a tad prohibitive it would solve any imagined problems I'm sure.

Or rather, I am sure there will be ways to squeeze the most out of ANY price list. But that's not a good reason to not even try.

Especially since everyone involved (players, DMs, designers) have access to over a decade of real play experience and data.

Not only do I expect WotC to set their prices in a way that accounts for the Big Six problem... I expect them to do better in most if not all regards than the 3E designers did back in, what, 2002? with almost no data or play experience at all*.

*) I know there was this thing called AD&D.... but d20 was a fundamentally different system (much more different from AD&D than 5E is different from 3E)... and since then this little thing called the internet have vastly increased the intelligence available to game designers... so, yes, I believe I have good reason to be hopeful

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Assuming a lamp is used for six hours each day, it costs 1sp to operate and 37gp every year.
A continual flame spell requires 50gp in components, but the caster is not likely working at cost (especially if their skills are rarer). So the magic lamp might be 75gp. More if there is a middle man or merchant. 100gp would not be unreasonable.
So asking someone to buy a magic lamp is asking them to invest in something that will break even after three years. That's more long term than many people think.
The very rich might buy, but it would be a luxury.

Don't underestimate the economic value of being able to continue working past sundown. Lighting is a big deal.

Unless you have darkvision, I guess.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure, and there's no logical reason why magic items can't be bought and sold. A world where magic is a commodity eventually ends up facing the Eberron question: if magic items are just gold + time, why wouldn't you make them to better peoples lives? Once you answer that, you get a line of logic that leads to magical lightbulbs, trains, telegraphs, artillery fire, and first aid kits. You can deny it, but that's no more nonsensical than saying nobody would ever sell you their +1 sword either.

Are you truly seriously for-real arguing that just because my fantasy world will - in some theoretical fever fantasy - turn into frakkin' Eberron in a thousand years, there should not be any support for the many many D&D gamers who use item pricing guidelines to convert their gold to something they can use without involving downtime...?

Wow.

Just... wow.

 

[CapnZapp]

I still compulsively collected coins anyway, because why not?

<snip>

So I am very comfortable with 5E's magic item paradigm.

I appreciate your honesty. It makes your opinion much easier to respect.

Of course, I trust that you respect that others would find such gold-collecting an utter waste of time...

...and that the solution is as simple as it it inclusive:

In YOUR game of D&D, there either are no magic shoppes, or their shelves are empty.

In MY game of D&D, magic shoppes are where heroes go to get some use out of the otherwise-worthless gold they've been collecting.

So, I thank you.

Assuming you have no problem with, and are encouraging of, any future guidelines for magic item pricing that sustains a balanced gold economy... since you know nobody will force you to use them, and that they will go a long step of fulfilling WotC's promise to add previous-edition support to 5E

 

[CapnZapp]

My point isn't that a D&D world will become Eberron one day, it's that it should be there NOW.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with you. Can you really be that petty and selfish, Rem?

If I play Forgotten Realms, or Kingdoms of Kalamaar, or whatever, the first thing I don't do, is convert everything about magic items to the pseudo-industrial level of Eberron...

I'm sorry, but if you feel compelled to make all your worlds the same, just because WotC adds back support for a magic item economy, I have to leave you behind. I can't let the frustrations of many many gamers be stopped just because a thing that you don't even have to read, much less use, ruins the fun for you.

Please say I am misunderstanding you.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ok if it is so easy, please give us a balanced price list of all items in the DMG, it should account for the utility of the items and not encourage players to buy only the most useful ones -like cloak or resistance-..

What an item's price should be should be when a PC walks through the merchant's door is up to the DM, not the DMG.

The price list for items is just a suggestion- a table of average values, if you will. In some regions, in some times, those prices could be much higher or lower, depending on supply and demand. And, of course, the knowledge of the parties in the transaction.

 

[CapnZapp]

I despise the idea of magic marts.

As long as you're okay with D&D eventually providing optional support on how other people want to convert their gold into better gear, that's perfectly alright: nobody's going to force you to use 'em.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I appreciate your honesty. It makes your opinion much easier to respect.

Of course, I trust that you respect that others would find such gold-collecting an utter waste of time...

...and that the solution is as simple as it it inclusive:

In YOUR game of D&D, there either are no magic shoppes, or their shelves are empty.

In MY game of D&D, magic shoppes are where heroes go to get some use out of the otherwise-worthless gold they've been collecting.

So, I thank you.

Assuming you have no problem with, and are encouraging of, any future guidelines for magic item pricing that sustains a balanced gold economy... since you know nobody will force you to use them, and that they will go a long step of fulfilling WotC's promise to add previous-edition support to 5E

Don't assume too much.

I don't mind you asking the Internet for magic item prices, but I reserve the right to be glad that the DMG has no such prices listed in it[1]. (I actually kind of wish it didn't have rarities listed either, because the rarities in the DMG quite often make no sense at all. Inconsistent, slapdash crunch is worse than no crunch.)

[1] Well, it sort of does, but you're obviously ignoring the DMG selling prices for magic items, and I can't blame you because they are garbage.

 

[CapnZapp]

Make it up yourself. Use an old book if you want prices easy.

Just stop there. We've had that argument before, and it is just untrue.

Setting up a balanced set of pricing components is far from easy. In fact, it's quite difficult.

I've considered the task myself, but already the fundamentals are different. Not just how 3E goes from +1 to +5 while 5E stops at +3 (that part is almost trivial), but how to price attunement instead of body slots, and what about concentration and how spell damage doesn't auto-increase with level...

The differences between d20 and 5E in how magic items work, as well as how individual items are constructed are significant enough that you can't just "tweak the numbers" and go for it.

There's lots of niggling little details I'd rather have WotC crunch.

A fledgling DM should definitely never be told she can do it herself.

Ask yourself: if it really were as easy as you claim, why haven't the ENWorld fans done it over and over already?

 

[CapnZapp]

What an item's price should be should be when a PC walks through the merchant's door is up to the DM, not the DMG.

The price list for items is just a suggestion- a table of average values, if you will. In some regions, in some times, those prices could be much higher or lower, depending on supply and demand. And, of course, the knowledge of the parties in the transaction.

Kaiilurker's point is that there isn't any such balanced price list. The current rarity-based prices simply doesn't work for when you want to hand out a menu to the players. (They weren't made for that purpose, so nothing wrong there. But the game still lacks the option for those who need it)

Now, no matter what prices the campaign is using, of course the DM should feel free to use or change those prices precisely as you say.

But that's something different from what's discussed here: the lack of a balanced set of guidelines for item pricing.

The difference is that whenever the DM doesn't feel like being creative, she doesn't have to be, since there is a price list that can be trusted to give fair options and not wreck the campaign to fall back on.

If you never do that, fine, you don't need the list. But that doesn't mean D&D shouldn't have one.