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D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The only way to have easily crafted items, is if they are also readily available, and thus easily purchasable.

Not necessarily so.

My Dad and I like hand lathed wooden pens. 10 years ago, I knew a dozen places that sold them, made by several different artisans. They were not difficult to make, nor were they pricey.

But today, I can only get the inexpensive ones in 3 stores, and most of the hand-lathed pens I see now cost 3-4x what they did back then.

Something that is technically "easily" crafted may also be quite hard to find and expensive if its production is limited by law, such as by patent or its historical and conceptual predecessor, Royal decree/seal.

Ditto if there is a trade secret involved.

Something may also be "easy" to make, but its materials may be rare- a hand-lathed pen made from semiprecious stone or antler/bone will cost more than a similarly styled wooden one. Likewise, conditions of manufacture may be rare or very time consuming. I know of some recipes in creole cuisine that are very simple at every step, but take 3 days to complete (we don't make that stuff often or in big batches). I know of certain seafood products in the grocery store that are harvested like many similar products...but only once a year. That they are harvested in vast amounts keeps the price down, but once it is gone, it is gone until next year.

the only way to have reliable consistent pricing, is to have enough of each of item available to create such a consistent economy.
A monopoly/oligopoly, whether a natural one or one imposed by laws, will do the same.

You simply can't have +1 swords be easy to make *and* always be 2K gp *and* hard to purchase.... it just doesn't work.

It works if production involves some kind of trade secret or law restricting who can manufacture (as mentioned above), with a legal monopoly (mentioned above) and any conditions limiting purchase, such as but not limited to:

1) a law limiting the ability to purchase to a particular identifiable class (military, nobility, citizens, etc.)
2) a maker who limits whohe will sell to
3) the product does not yet have wide distribution. This could be because the product is genuinely new & undiscovered, or it is made in a place that is geographically isolated.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Not necessarily so.

My Dad and I like hand lathed wooden pens. 10 years ago, I knew a dozen places that sold them, made by several different artisans. They were not difficult to make, nor were they pricey.

But today, I can only get the inexpensive ones in 3 stores, and most of the hand-lathed pens I see now cost 3-4x what they did back then.

Something that is technically "easily" crafted may also be quite hard to find and expensive if its production is limited by law, such as by patent or its historical and conceptual predecessor, Royal decree/seal.

Ditto if there is a trade secret involved.

Something may also be "easy" to make, but its materials may be rare- a hand-lathed pen made from semiprecious stone or antler/bone will cost more than a similarly styled wooden one. Likewise, conditions of manufacture may be rare or very time consuming. I know of some recipes in creole cuisine that are very simple at every step, but take 3 days to complete (we don't make that stuff often or in big batches). I know of certain seafood products in the grocery store that are harvested like many similar products...but only once a year. That they are harvested in vast amounts keeps the price down, but once it is gone, it is gone until next year.


A monopoly/oligopoly, whether a natural one or one imposed by laws, will do the same.



It works if production involves some kind of trade secret or law restricting who can manufacture (as mentioned above), with a legal monopoly (mentioned above) and any conditions limiting purchase, such as but not limited to:

1) a law limiting the ability to purchase to a particular identifiable class (military, nobility, citizens, etc.)
2) a maker who limits whohe will sell to
3) the product does not yet have wide distribution. This could be because the product is genuinely new & undiscovered, or it is made in a place that is geographically isolated.

The problem with this, as I see it, is that adding any or all of those has some very serious setting implications. A law limiting purchasing? Now you need a (reasonably) stable state in order to enact those laws, and every state has to do the same, or else one state will become awash in magic items and start selling to their neighbours. Limited makers carries all sorts of setting implications - how is that determined? what is the point of having makers in the setting that won't sell to the PC's? how are the PC's going to go where the items are being sold? how much of a time sink is this? etc. The distribution thing is also an issue. "genuinely new and undiscovered" is going to have serious setting implications and destabilization effects. If State A can make magic items, then all of State A's neighbours are going to want in on that. Geographically isolated only lasts until the players figure out how to change the geography. Great if you run only one campaign in that setting, but, again, makes the next campaign a bit tricky.

And, to me, this is why I'm rather happy they left all that out of the DMG and aren't jumping up and down to give us "official" rules. One of the biggest complaints about 3e was the magic walmart and fungible magic items.

I just hope that when we do see these mechanics, they are labeled optional and buried somewhere and never, ever come up in any other products.
 



Hussar

Legend
I ran 3.0 and 3.5 for years and never had a walmart for magic items, gosh, how was that even possible?

Ok, ignoring the snark for a moment. Could your PC's buy magic items? If so, how and where? What was the process for buying a, say, potion or scroll or a +1 sword?

Because, even if you didn't have a physical Magic Wal Mart, many DM's made towns, and the default rules certainly work this way, effectively a Magic Walmart. You went into the town, the town had a max GP level and you were assumed to be able to find and purchase anything under that limit. While it might not have been an actual, physical, Magic Walmart, that's effectively the same thing.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
Ok, ignoring the snark for a moment. Could your PC's buy magic items? If so, how and where? What was the process for buying a, say, potion or scroll or a +1 sword?

Because, even if you didn't have a physical Magic Wal Mart, many DM's made towns, and the default rules certainly work this way, effectively a Magic Walmart. You went into the town, the town had a max GP level and you were assumed to be able to find and purchase anything under that limit. While it might not have been an actual, physical, Magic Walmart, that's effectively the same thing.

You're still the DM and you're still ultimately in charge of your game. Don't want your players buying a staff of magi? They simply can't find one.

Wow, that was REALLY difficult now wasn't it.

The argument that magic item prices in the DMG = walmarts of magic items is absurd. Heck there are magic item prices in the DMG now, yet somehow, magically I suppose, there are still no WalMart stores unless the DM wants them to be there.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The problem with this, as I see it, is that adding any or all of those has some very serious setting implications. A law limiting purchasing? Now you need a (reasonably) stable state in order to enact those laws, and every state has to do the same, or else one state will become awash in magic items and start selling to their neighbours.

Laws like that are very common in the real world, even today. Try buying a bulletproof vest (legally) without proof you're a policeman. Try buying from the PX without proof of being a serviceman or dependent.

Back in the times most similar to those typical of a FRPG, carrying a weapon bigger than a knife was something that was pretty tightly controlled, even if it is something most games gloss over.

Limited makers carries all sorts of setting implications - how is that determined?

In most feudal societies, who could legally produce certain items- especially arms, armor, siege weaponry and any other technologies deemed to be important to the well being of the state- would be controlled by royal edicts. Produce something without the right seal, and you could face ruinous fines, exile, or in extreme cases, the death penalty.

Similarly, NON-vital trade secrets- such as a cheaper way to create porcelain, or the fine glass working secrets of Murano- were guarded no less violently by trade guilds or even individual makers.

In such a society, the creation secrets of magic items of all kinds would be guarded with equal or greater diligence and force. Even magical force.

Hell- some creators may be magically compelled to sell only to persons bearing a certain mark.

what is the point of having makers in the setting that won't sell to the PC's?

Introducing them to the grey market, the black market, the Thieve's Guild or even doing without.

(I spent many months of campaigning trying to get a masterwork Dire Pick made for my PC in a RttToEE campaign. Never got it- the locals weren't up to it. And that was far more common an item than anything magical.)

how are the PC's going to go where the items are being sold? how much of a time sink is this? etc.

Those are campaign/DMing issues.

The distribution thing is also an issue. "genuinely new and undiscovered" is going to have serious setting implications and destabilization effects. If State A can make magic items, then all of State A's neighbours are going to want in on that.

Which is why those secrets get protected with the full force of Royal authority.

Geographically isolated only lasts until the players figure out how to change the geography.

Congrats- your setting just became more dynamic! That's a good thing.

Great if you run only one campaign in that setting, but, again, makes the next campaign a bit tricky.

Who runs all of their settings from the same starting point? Why should my campaigns all be like FR, when there is Greyhawk, Spelljammer, Eberron, and DarkSun? Not to mention Middle Earth, Nehwon, Earthsea, Hyborea, Melnibone, and stuff I homebrewed? Or kitchen sink settings?

One of the biggest complaints about 3e was the magic walmart and fungible magic items.

This is one more place where your experiences and mine differ.

I participated in any number of "Monty Haul" games- as player and DM- in AD&D and 2Ed. No magic walmart needed when the DM is handing out soulswords like valentines candy. But I was a young teen.

In my late teens forward, from the end of 2Ed through 4th, magic items were treated as normal goods, night and sold. But NEVER was there a magic walmart. At best, there was a specialist in making (whatever) who had a few things for sale, sometimes for the stated prices, sometimes less, sometimes more.

Sometimes, we role played it out. Other times, each player submitted a list, and the DM would tell them what they were able to find, and at what price. Nobody EVER got everything they asked for, unless they set their sights very, very low.

IOW, the explosion of availability of magic items ISN'T system specific, it is a playstyle thing.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Besides...do you realize how improbable an actual magical walmart would be?

Not only is the concept of a large, one-stop shop open to the public a post-industrial idea, the amount of money required to build, stock and guard them is HUGE.

Now imagine that what you stock is magic items.

Stocking such a store and its security issues would require an outlay of cash comparable to any castle. Few individuals or even groups have that kind of wealth. And there are other issues... Safeguarding Magic-Mart would require sophisticated magic and a security force to rival an army.

And you know what happens when feudal lords find forces that rival theirs within the boundaries of their landholdings? They try to crush them. That's one of the reasons the shoguns of Japan attacked the monasteries.

If they can't crush them, they try to make them allies of some kind...and that may mean the crown decides who gets to associate with them. In the case in point, that would mean a model more like a Sam's Club, where the only ones who can buy are those who have documents with a certain seal.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there as a variant. For many, player driven gear advancement - crafting especially, is an entire pillar of game play unto itself.

I am glad that part of the game is gone. The magic item Christmas tree made the entire game more difficult to run. Players would select the magic items that gave them the most power. The designers would keep putting out items that created additional nightmarish combinations that made DMing the game difficult. Magic items were by far the worst aspect of previous editions of D&D for balance. The ability of players to carefully select key magic items through crafting feats and/or purchasing created immense headaches for encounter design, especially time investment spent designing encounters to deal with players with a perfect assortment of magic items. MMORPG or video games are more successful balancing gear advancement because they carefully monitor the numbers using computerized tools. RPGs are notoriously poor at balancing magic items with class abilities creating nightmare situations for DMs to run within the confines of the game system. I'm glad they left it up to each individual DM to manage. Let those DMs that want all that rigmarole spend countless hours trying to balance it all out. The game designers went the smart route and didn't even bother with it considering there has been no edition of D&D that pulled it off with any semblance of a balanced system that didn't create massive extra work for the DM trying to keep up with the players.
 
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