D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

The magic item Christmas tree made the entire game more difficult to run. Players would select the magic items that gave them the most power.

Where is it written that the DM has to give the PCs everything the players ask for?

And crafting feats aren't exactly a wish factory either- PCs still have to acquire the materials, wealth and time to make whatever it is.

Its a tradeoff: when you're crafting, you're not adventuring. When you're adventuring, you're not crafting.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Where is it written that the DM has to give the PCs everything the players ask for?

Jesus Christ, THIS. DM arbitration fixes most of the "magic" balancing acts in just about every edition. Is the Teleport spell going to ruin your game? Ban it. No one ever seems to have a good argument against this. The most common argument is "It's in the book I shouldn't have to ban stuff to make the game work". Completely faulty argument for the simple fact that most people ban certain races and classes to better fit their world and game. Why not magic items and spells? This is such a simple answer that no one ever even talks about most of the time.

You hear talk about balancing the game with magic items in mind. What does this actually mean? What is balance? The ability to overcome something ~50% of the time? Is that why they are factoring in magic items? Because you wouldn't stand a chance against high level enemies? Well of COURSE you shouldn't stand a chance against high level enemies with out magic items! Second, if you think that magic items are there to balance out high level play then I hate to tell you that no matter what you do a game at very high levels is not going to be balanced in the traditional sense. It's impossible, the game has too many moving parts, you can't account for all of them, you just cant. Too many variables. Magic items are just one of out MANY variables the game system has to worry about.
 

Jesus Christ, THIS. DM arbitration fixes most of the "magic" balancing acts in just about every edition. Is the Teleport spell going to ruin your game? Ban it. No one ever seems to have a good argument against this. The most common argument is "It's in the book I shouldn't have to ban stuff to make the game work". Completely faulty argument for the simple fact that most people ban certain races and classes to better fit their world and game. Why not magic items and spells? This is such a simple answer that no one ever even talks about most of the time.

You hear talk about balancing the game with magic items in mind. What does this actually mean? What is balance? The ability to overcome something ~50% of the time? Is that why they are factoring in magic items? Because you wouldn't stand a chance against high level enemies? Well of COURSE you shouldn't stand a chance against high level enemies with out magic items! Second, if you think that magic items are there to balance out high level play then I hate to tell you that no matter what you do a game at very high levels is not going to be balanced in the traditional sense. It's impossible, the game has too many moving parts, you can't account for all of them, you just cant. Too many variables. Magic items are just one of out MANY variables the game system has to worry about.
That is how the Pathfinder designers handle their game. I've seen Jason B over at the Paizo forums tell someone to remove or change Time Stop after the poster was complaining that it was wrecking his game. The guy then gave out because I believe he was looking for the designers to just go in and change the spell.
 

The system our DM developed for 5E involves questing, time, and money expenditure. He focused on one unique magic item for each player. He set up a means to obtain it that varied from player to player. Each player obtained the item throughout the course of the adventure. I found the system far more interesting than buying magic items. There wasn't anywhere near the balance problems inherent in past editions that used a crafting or purchase system.
 

The system our DM developed for 5E involves questing, time, and money expenditure. He focused on one unique magic item for each player. He set up a means to obtain it that varied from player to player. Each player obtained the item throughout the course of the adventure. I found the system far more interesting than buying magic items. There wasn't anywhere near the balance problems inherent in past editions that used a crafting or purchase system.
I don't see any reason why such a system wouldn't work with any edition of D&D.








(...or how it would stop the development of a magic item economy.)
 

Where is it written that the DM has to give the PCs everything the players ask for?

And crafting feats aren't exactly a wish factory either- PCs still have to acquire the materials, wealth and time to make whatever it is.

Its a tradeoff: when you're crafting, you're not adventuring. When you're adventuring, you're not crafting.

When you play to high level, you get plenty of downtime. Our average campaigns go to 14 to 15th level. It's rare we don't reach 10th or 12th in a campaign that doesn't burn out within a few weeks. It doesn't take long to craft a key magic item that supplements the standard Christmas Tree items found in adventures. Most people only craft or purchase one or two items because all the standard Rings of Protection and Cloaks of Resistance are found or upgraded during downtime. Then there is the cherry-picking of key items like these pauldrons I can't remember the name of that allowed enlargement at will and were very cheap. There is a lot to keep track of. Simple saying ban it all doesn't work. Each new book that gets released possibly had an item, feat, archetype, or something that created a balance problem. Players with access to all of them can pretty easily stay ahead of DM banning unless the DM is reading every book and every idea they are reading. Most are not. So pretending that banning is easy is pretty ridiculous in real play unless your players allow you to steamroll them. I pretty much guarantee you would not be able to do that with the group I play with. Now onto some info about that group.

Have you never been part of a long time group that decides things by consensus? Banning magic items, spells, and the like is not always an option. Sometimes players argue against those types of changes. Just recently we ended up in a big discussion over Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter and the impact of both feats on the game. One player refused to allow them to be changed. This isn't a simple, "Find another player." We've been playing with this guy for twenty plus years and we are friends outside of the game as well. It is not an option to "find another player" that will allow you to wield the DM heavy stick.

Maybe some of you move between groups and have the option to "find other players" or maybe your friends around the table say "do what you want." I don't know. That isn't an option at my table. We have four to six players that have been gaming together since we were in our teens and early twenties. Any major changes such as banning spells or items usually ends up in a heated debate. When you ban something, you might be ruining an aspect of the game that a player enjoys to create a situation that you prefer. It becomes a question of what does the group prefer?

Since we tend to switch off DMing, we like to keep our campaigns tied together in the same world meaning same rules for each campaign. That means we don't make changes unless the group agrees to the changes. It made the magic item crafting and purchasing rules of previous campaigns particularly bad for my group. I worried every time a new book came out that Pathfinder would release a new magic item, feat, or archetype that would create a massive balanced headache my players would surprise me with. I knew if I tried to ban it, the group would have to agree to it or it wouldn't happen.

Not being able to rely on the game designers to produce a balanced game was a problem. I should be able to rely on them to produce a balanced game without having to wield the ban stick all the time. It's what I pay for. I have found over my three decades of playing is that magic items imbalance and create more problems for encounter design than any other aspect of the game. I'm glad they toned it down. Throwing in a combination of magic items with varying bonuses that provide immense statistical boosts was one of the worst things they ever introduced in 3E. Players would take major advantage of it quite often stacking magic items with enhancement, luck, dodge, size, and other possible bonuses together from multiple magic items. Horribly designed and hard to track everything that needed to be banned or controlled. I'm glad it's gone. I hope it never comes back as other than a third party supplement for those handful of people that seem to enjoy that play-style or don't mind that type of gear inflation.

Myself, I don't like to end up in arguments with long time buddies over game stuff. I know this is a unique situation to my group given many groups don't have the same kind of relationships or longevity. This new magic item system in 5E is making my life a lot of easier as a DM. The previous editions that allowed easy crafting and purchasing created a lot of problems around our table. They weren't solved by creating a massive list of banned items using the excuse of difficult to design encounters when combined with all the other capabilities of a given character.

The Magic Item Christmas tree is dead, may it stay so for every edition of D&D from here on out.
 
Last edited:

I don't see any reason why such a system wouldn't work with any edition of D&D.








(...or how it would stop the development of a magic item economy.)

It would work in any system. Our group tends to follow the rules put out by the game designers. That meant in previous editions, we allowed the purchase of magic items per the rules in the book. It was a real problem.

Now that the default system is magic items are super rare and left up to the DM. That makes everything much easier for the entire group I play with and gives the DM much greater creative control.

You can tell me until your blue in the face that "DM can do what he want." It isn't the case. Players get to pick a DM they enjoy as well and usually do have some say over what rules will be used, especially in long time groups. I prefer the 5E default for magic items because as a person that DM's often, it is easier to created balanced encounters.
 

I kind of hate to break it to you Celtavian but that's basically still the case, in fact, it's even worse now due to "bounded accuracy". Seen a level 14 Paladin solo a CR18 Dragon yet? I have. Thanks Magic Items. Oh did I mention I am handing them out at 1/4 the recommended rate in the DMG?
The only difference is now it's way easier to mess it up because the designers left it up to us instead of giving us some sort of reference point to work with. Even the rarity groupings are pretty poorly thought out.

And unless you actually plan on running a no magic items campaign, it's even harder now to design encounters with magic items in mind, because they're not assumed as part of the maths. Your players will still probably badger you now if they badgered you before for crafting, because the rules are still there, you do realise that right? And if you have oodles of downtime and piles of gold in your campaign, there's nothing really stopping them from doing exactly the same thing. If you couldn't say "No" to your players before, you can't say "No" now either, it's not really a rules issue, it's a DM issue.
Just like I wouldn't let you do ridiculous Simulacrum/Wish shenanigans, I'm not going to let you craft whatever you want, no matter what the book says.

And just so you know, most MMO's don't just let players craft whatever they want. They usually have a system which requires a lot of work and effort to get the rarest materials - usually questing and killing some sort of challenging boss. You can't just handwave it and then *poof* you have a legendary item, you have to work for it.

It would have been nice of the designers to actually put some thought into that area after the lessons learned in 3e, but nope, this edition seems to all be about "If it's hard to get right we won't even bother!"
 
Last edited:


At the end of an adventure today, the DM put on the table, for distribution to PCs, some Adventurer's League magic item certificates. There was a certificate for a +1 sword, a +1 armor, etc. One of the certificates was printed as VOID. WotC intended this as sort of like a voided check, as a way of handling the way that certificates print out... but the player of the Great Old One warlock called dibs on that one, rather than any of the other certificates in the pile.

Excellent roleplaying. It will be quite useful; it has more powers than he knows about so far. And there's no way any mortal could have crafted it, or sold it in a store. (Honestly, I dunno how anyone without a GOO patron could attune it.)
 

Remove ads

Top