D&D 5E Looking for Turn Undead alternate rule

[Skyscraper]

From this thread, I was discussing why Turn Undead is not satisfactory to me. You may or may not disagree but I'd like to leave this argument out of this thread (you can take it to the other thread if you wish). Here, I'd like to hear proposals or discussions on an alternate rule for turn undead.

What I wish from the alternate turn undead:

- a power that does not force the undead to flee
- a power that is not a win button, i.e. that does not transform the undead encounters into save-or-flee, save-or-die, or that otherwise forces the DM to design undead encounters specifically to address the power of turn undead. I do not mind if turn undead is stronger than other powers, in fact i kind of expect it to be
- a power that has the good cleric flavor attached to it
- something somewhat balanced, but I don't mind if it's a tad strong or limited

Thanks to anyone for your proposals!

 

[Skyscraper]

I'll start by reposting what I was toying with in the other thread.

Option 1: From the Lightbringer cleric alternate Turn Undead in the Return to Castle Ravenloft module, turn undead can be used as usual or can be replaced by Destroy Undead, a power that damages undead in a 30-foot radius (e.g. 1d6 per cleric level in that module, could be toned down a bit for 5E). What I like is that this leaves the choice to the cleric, which means that when you feel overwhelmed, you can use the regular turn undead; but as they mention, the lightbringer doesn't like to have some undead flee, he prefers to destroy. (Like me ) This option is somewhat underwhelming for me, since I dislike the regular turn undead and my inclination is to replace it, so leaving it as an option goes against that goal. However, simply having a damaging feature for the power, is perhaps a bit bland.

Option 2 is to do a 4E-type of power, where the undead are damaged and pushed back as an instantaneous effect, but can thereafter act as they want. So kinda like option 1, but with a push-away effect added, and no option to turn undead as usual to make them flee. This push-back could be considerable, say, 60 feet for example, providing plenty of options and some ranged attacks to the party as the undead will use an entire round to get back their initial position. If the push-back is too strong at 60 feet, perhaps then only 30 feet?

Option 3: turn undead becomes a sphere that is impassible by the undead for a certain amount of time - the cinematic effect of keeping a hoard of zombies at bay with the cleric's faith is really cool. Any undead initially in the sphere are pushed back. There are mechanical issues with this option however in my opinion. If a save or [ulteriorly damaged undead are unaffected condition] are allowed, it means that mindless undead trickle through the barrier and then you can kill them one or a few at a time, making this another win button. So I don't know that I'd allow a saving throw. One way to deal with this, could be that as long as no undead in the area outside the sphere is damaged or attacked, the barrier stands (no save). However, should the cleric or his allies damage or attack any undead, the barrier breaks. This would allow the cleric to effectively avoid an encounter altogether, but of course in such a case the undead might well return later. If it's a mindless hoard, I think it's kind of cool that the cleric would save the party from such a battle. The hoard might follow the cleric outside the barrier, waiting for his faith to waiver...

Thoughts? Additional ideas?

 

[Croesus]

How about a radius around the cleric within which undead have disadvantage on attacks? This makes undead somewhat less threatening, but still a danger. It also seems to fit the idea of a cleric "repelling" the undead with the force of his/her faith. Personally, I'd also make it require concentration, as that just fits the concept to me.

 

[GX.Sigma]

How about just using the "frightened" condition?

 

[Dausuul]

I would take the cleric of Light's "Radiance of the Dawn" power, increase the damage to 4d10 + cleric level, and have it affect only undead.

Alternatively, use Turn Undead as written, but have affected undead cower in place rather than flee. (Remember, the effect ends if they take any damage.)

 

[77IM]

I like Option 3.

When in doubt about mechanics, go back to the source material. In this case, it's scenes in movies where you hold up a cross to keep a vampire at bay.

I'd phrase this a zone of holy energy that undead find repulsive.

Mechanically, I'd implement this as a "soft" repulsion ala marking from 4e: In other words, the zone imposes conditions that the undead would prefer to not suffer. For example:
* Undead within the zone suffer vulnerability to all damage, and can't use reactions or legendary actions. Non-undead within the radius get advantage on saving throws against undead, and undead have disadvantage on attack rolls against them.
* Unintelligent undead will automatically flee the zone on their turn via the safest and quickest route, taking the Disengage action if necessary. Unintelligent undead that are unable to flee may act as normal but may simply Dodge, at the DM's discretion.
* If anyone in the zone attacks or uses a harmful effect against an undead outside the zone, the effect ends.

So if you make the zone small (say, 10 feet) and maintaining it inconvenient (say, a Concentration effect that requires 1 hand to hold up your holy symbol) then it's no longer an instant-win button. It's just a zone of suck.

 

[Skyscraper]

How about just using the "frightened" condition?

Interesting option, and simple.
[MENTION=6690511]GX.Sigma[/MENTION] : how would you apply this condition? I see a few options:

a) instantaneous effect when the cleric whips out his holy symbol. Then, sub questions: (i) save or no save? and (ii) limited area of effect (e.g. 30') or line of sight?
b) continuous effect as of the moment that the cleric holds his holy symbol. Then, sub questions: (i) save or no save? And (ii) limited arear of effect or line of sight?

And: requires concentration

If it's only an instantaneous effect with an ongoing condition, it means that, say, an undead that enters the room after the turn undead power was triggered, could walk up to the cleric unhindered by this power, even though his undead colleagues are cowering from the cleric?

 

[Skyscraper]

How about a radius around the cleric within which undead have disadvantage on attacks? This makes undead somewhat less threatening, but still a danger. It also seems to fit the idea of a cleric "repelling" the undead with the force of his/her faith. Personally, I'd also make it require concentration, as that just fits the concept to me.

Another interesting idea. I like the fact that it is an ongoing zone effect, as opposed to an instantaneous effect that possibly lasts for a certain time.

I also like that the undead might be driven crazy by the discomfort they feel, choosing to swarm the cleric. With disadvantage of course. This is kind of cool. Not that they'd do this all the time. Just, maybe, sometimes.

 

[Skyscraper]

I would take the cleric of Light's "Radiance of the Dawn" power, increase the damage to 4d10 + cleric level, and have it affect only undead.

Alternatively, use Turn Undead as written, but have affected undead cower in place rather than flee. (Remember, the effect ends if they take any damage.)

I'm not too fond of the damage-only option.

As for the undead cowering in place, I feel it doesn't address my desire to avoid a win button: the undead can be attacked one by one and dispatched easily, even if they get to defend themselves once they are attacked (individually).

 

[Skyscraper]

I like Option 3.

When in doubt about mechanics, go back to the source material. In this case, it's scenes in movies where you hold up a cross to keep a vampire at bay.

I'd phrase this a zone of holy energy that undead find repulsive.

Mechanically, I'd implement this as a "soft" repulsion ala marking from 4e: In other words, the zone imposes conditions that the undead would prefer to not suffer. For example:
* Undead within the zone suffer vulnerability to all damage, and can't use reactions or legendary actions. Non-undead within the radius get advantage on saving throws against undead, and undead have disadvantage on attack rolls against them.
* Unintelligent undead will automatically flee the zone on their turn via the safest and quickest route, taking the Disengage action if necessary. Unintelligent undead that are unable to flee may act as normal but may simply Dodge, at the DM's discretion.
* If anyone in the zone attacks or uses a harmful effect against an undead outside the zone, the effect ends.

So if you make the zone small (say, 10 feet) and maintaining it inconvenient (say, a Concentration effect that requires 1 hand to hold up your holy symbol) then it's no longer an instant-win button. It's just a zone of suck.

Thanks for the proposal. I like the idea of having a zone that repulses the undead, as noted above. I find your options a tad complicated (not that much, mind you, just in a game design sense): vulnerability, advantage on attacks and saves, some undead forced to flee but not others, end of effect condition, possible use of dodge and disengage.

Also, I'm not sure that adding vulnerability to all damage is desirable, it appears pretty strong to me: in addition to the PCs having advantage on attack rolls, this means that in practice the undead will flee the zone because they become way too vulnerable within it, and on their turn the PCs will move towards the undead one by one and will attack them with advantage on attacks and double damage.