D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

[Ilbranteloth]

Paizo vs Wizards.

Paizo: Let's get together and see what great product we can come with next.

Wizards: Let's get together and come up with a way to make the most money.

And what's wrong with making money?

Before we continue the discussion, what's your opinion about the 5th edition rules in general?

Do you like them more/less than the 4th ed?
How about more/less than Pathfinder?

Which are you playing?
Which are you and your friends, acquaintances, and even strangers playing more?

I'll set my position:
I've played all editions of D&D, starting in the late '70s. At the time, we loved the direction and growth through the 2nd and 3rd editions, although admittedly there were people in our group that really didn't care about all the cool new rules and wanted to just keep playing what we were playing. Things fell apart at the start of the 4th ed. We tried it, but it was very difficult to convert from the old campaign. But people moved, jobs got in the way, etc.

I'm now playing with mostly new people in the 5th edition. We all love it, and without a doubt all of us that have played before think it's the best, most elegant release yet. My schedule hasn't really gotten any better, but I've made time to run two campaigns and keep toying with the idea of another, helping a friend (two are starting games, one of them is new to D&D and thus DMing), and I would love to figure out how I could squeeze in running games at a local store. It's been several years since I've run a game, and more since I've run a campaign.

So the 5th edition sucked me back in big time. And as I've posted elsewhere it's about a 50/50 split between new and old players, and of the old players a 50/50 split between 3rd and 4th edition players. I'm the only one that goes back farther.

Anyway, I'm curious as to your gaming experience and where the 5th edition falls in your gaming awesomeness continuum. Not how WotC is handling things, not what's been released/not. Just what you think about the game itself.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Sailor Moon]

And what's wrong with making money?

Before we continue the discussion, what's your opinion about the 5th edition rules in general?

Do you like them more/less than the 4th ed?
How about more/less than Pathfinder?

Which are you playing?
Which are you and your friends, acquaintances, and even strangers playing more?

I'll set my position:
I've played all editions of D&D, starting in the late '70s. At the time, we loved the direction and growth through the 2nd and 3rd editions, although admittedly there were people in our group that really didn't care about all the cool new rules and wanted to just keep playing what we were playing. Things fell apart at the start of the 4th ed. We tried it, but it was very difficult to convert from the old campaign. But people moved, jobs got in the way, etc.

I'm now playing with mostly new people in the 5th edition. We all love it, and without a doubt all of us that have played before think it's the best, most elegant release yet. My schedule hasn't really gotten any better, but I've made time to run two campaigns and keep toying with the idea of another, helping a friend (two are starting games, one of them is new to D&D and thus DMing), and I would love to figure out how I could squeeze in running games at a local store. It's been several years since I've run a game, and more since I've run a campaign.

So the 5th edition sucked me back in big time. And as I've posted elsewhere it's about a 50/50 split between new and old players, and of the old players a 50/50 split between 3rd and 4th edition players. I'm the only one that goes back farther.

Anyway, I'm curious as to your gaming experience and where the 5th edition falls in your gaming awesomeness continuum. Not how WotC is handling things, not what's been released/not. Just what you think about the game itself.

Ilbranteloth

There is nothing wrong with making money and both companies are making it. The difference comes into play when you look at the goals of both companies. Paizo is full of people who like TTRPGS and enjoy making them for the benefit of the customer. Wizards is stuck on the profit treadmill. Just making profit isn't good enough. Just making a profit for Paizo is good enough.

Wizards is in it for themselves so their decisions are based on what's better for them while Pair's decisions are based on whats better for the customer.

 

[Kramodlog]

Ahem. Lots of people said 3e was great and it tanked even faster than 4e did. What we say on the boards isn't always what's true.

You are amusing. Please continue.

 

[Kramodlog]

Maybe Paizo never got the memo that it costs money to produce product?

Or time travellers!

 

[Manchu]

Paizo is full of people who like TTRPGS and enjoy making them for the benefit of the customer. Wizards is stuck on the profit treadmill.

Along these lines, it's worth noting that Paizo is in some ways more of an industry leader than WotC. Not in terms of profit, probably, because they don't control a household name brand. I mean, in terms of shaping the concept of RPG products. I never really looked at Paizo this way because they are a company dedicated to "the past" (as it were) in terms of rules; i.e., their core market is folks who refused to "move on" with 4E. But when you look at HtoDQ and RoT, you see Paizo's influence very clearly. The influence of OSR scenesters is well-known, as well (if anything, OSR has been the only source of major innovation in D&D since mid-3E). It is a bit like cell phones. The iPhone controls a huge market share but the iPhone 5 is clearly following the design trend of Android phones. Who makes the most money is not the end-all-be-all we often make it out to be. D&D may retake its traditional throne as King of RPGs in terms of profits but I doubt that title will mean the same thing as it did during 3E, where D&D not only made the most money but also had the most influence.

 

[GameOgre]

D&D 5E can't win.

If they started churning out rule books like crazy and adventurers faster than anyone could play them, they would be just money grubbing.

If they don't they are just money grubbing.

Come on guys. I want more product as well. I hate having to slave away creating everything myself. I would love to just be able to see a new book and get all excited about it.

I'm disappointed as much as anyone else.

I mostly just wish they had a OGL/whatever 3rd parties use out so other companies could feed my never ending short adventure habit and wotc could keep right on doing their thing.

It's too early to call yet though if this is any kind of a long term issue or just a starting hiccup.

 

[Hussar]

You are amusing. Please continue.

Really? How long was 3e in print? You claimed that the reason 4e was dropped so quickly is because people complained about it on the boards. Ok, fair enough. Why was 3e dropped so quickly then?

 

[Manchu]

Just to be clear, are you referring to 3.0 as opposed to 3E generally?

 

[Trickster Spirit]

Along these lines, it's worth noting that Paizo is in some ways more of an industry leader than WotC. Not in terms of profit, probably, because they don't control a household name brand. I mean, in terms of shaping the concept of RPG products. I never really looked at Paizo this way because they are a company dedicated to "the past" (as it were) in terms of rules; i.e., their core market is folks who refused to "move on" with 4E. But when you look at HtoDQ and RoT, you see Paizo's influence very clearly. The influence of OSR scenesters is well-known, as well (if anything, OSR has been the only source of major innovation in D&D since mid-3E). It is a bit like cell phones. The iPhone controls a huge market share but the iPhone 5 is clearly following the design trend of Android phones. Who makes the most money is not the end-all-be-all we often make it out to be. D&D may retake its traditional throne as King of RPGs in terms of profits but I doubt that title will mean the same thing as it did during 3E, where D&D not only made the most money but also had the most influence.

Excellent point, I'd agree with this completely.

The iPhone / Android comparison is particularly apt. The trend reversed itself in that analogy as well - the first Android smartphones imitated the newly released iPhone (the Android prototype actually had a QWERTY keyboard that was abandoned after Jobs announced the iPhone). If we ignore the history of Blackberry, Nokia, Palm, et al. and just go with the iPhone as the first modern smartphone it's a perfect fit - the creator and early innovator of the platform that still maintains the largest single share of the market but is now playing catch-up to a score of smaller competitors, who need to innovate themselves into specific niches in order to differentiate themselves from the industry giant who can't pivot quite as rapidly as they can. Innovate vs. iterate, basically.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

There is nothing wrong with making money and both companies are making it. The difference comes into play when you look at the goals of both companies. Paizo is full of people who like TTRPGS and enjoy making them for the benefit of the customer. Wizards is stuck on the profit treadmill. Just making profit isn't good enough. Just making a profit for Paizo is good enough.

Wizards is in it for themselves so their decisions are based on what's better for them while Pair's decisions are based on whats better for the customer.

OK, since you ignored my direct question to you...

I'm going to assume you like the 5th edition or you wouldn't be here so much complaining about it. Which means that based on your apparent philosophy, WotC just got lucky and made a great game by accident because they don't care about RPGs, all they care about is themselves.

Yes, I'm being disingenuous. But I think this position is a load of crap. Paizo and every other company exists to make money. If the guys at Paizo had to do it for free, then they'd be working someplace else instead.

What you (and others) are really trying to get to is that Paizo is a small publisher that doesn't have to answer to a larger corporate entity.

Fair enough, but there are benefits and risks to having to report to a group that may not have the same enthusiasm about your niche in a hobby market. I'd have to argue that if all Hasbro wanted was the brand, then the game would have been gone altogether a long time ago. Because as has been pointed out before, the profits of TTRPG are a drop in the bucket to their other lines.

Here's the thing, though. A small bucket of consistent profits is still a small bucket. But if it's consistent, it's still profits. And profits is what matters. And if the parent company understands that it's a niche market and that division needs to be run by a group of people that are in, love, and understand that market, then they're happy to leave them alone and let them keep generating their small but consistent profits. As I've said before, when somebody like Hasbro looks at a company, they aren't looking for sales figures, but profits. If your line can produce 40%, 50% or more in profits, you're in a good place. If you're producing a product that's covering 7%, 10%, maybe not. A small margin works for a small company. But I think that D&D is still producing a profit margin they are happy with, so they leave it alone.

So I think that the core team at Wizards really does love gaming and love what they do, and they really are trying to put together the best game they can. Yes they also have to ensure that the bottom line meets Hasbro's goals. But those aren't mutually exclusive.

I think that they've hit a home run with this version of the rules. More importantly I think they learned a huge lesson from the 4th edition - instead of trying to change the rules to appeal to a wider audience (particularly the computer gaming audience), tie the products together. Some people will make the jump from one market to the other, others won't. So instead of a rules system that's designed to appeal to computer gamers, we have computer games, TTRPGs, some online comics, and probably in the future novels, tying together these different markets. This is a massive shift in thinking that allows the TTRPG to live in its own space without having to worry about the same type of interference as before.

My take? I think they (Hasbro and WotC) are eyeing the success of the Marvel Universe. How they've branched out into different mediums that appeal to different segments of the market to make money off of a brand instead of a product that will never appeal to everybody. Not everybody likes comics. Not everybody likes TTRPGs. Instead of trying to convert them, bring the content to them. And guess what, I'll bet it grows the TTRPG business too.

In other words, focus on the core gamers because they are the ones that are most important. Bringing in the new gamers is important, but doesn't happen if the core gamers aren't promoting the game. So the focus is on making the core gamers happy, which is a bit of a turn-around from the 4th edition.

Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2014/08/21/selling-the-new-dungeons-dragons/

Ilbranteloth