D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

[Sailor Moon]

OK, since you ignored my direct question to you...

I'm going to assume you like the 5th edition or you wouldn't be here so much complaining about it. Which means that based on your apparent philosophy, WotC just got lucky and made a great game by accident because they don't care about RPGs, all they care about is themselves.

Yes, I'm being disingenuous. But I think this position is a load of crap. Paizo and every other company exists to make money. If the guys at Paizo had to do it for free, then they'd be working someplace else instead.

What you (and others) are really trying to get to is that Paizo is a small publisher that doesn't have to answer to a larger corporate entity.

Fair enough, but there are benefits and risks to having to report to a group that may not have the same enthusiasm about your niche in a hobby market. I'd have to argue that if all Hasbro wanted was the brand, then the game would have been gone altogether a long time ago. Because as has been pointed out before, the profits of TTRPG are a drop in the bucket to their other lines.

Here's the thing, though. A small bucket of consistent profits is still a small bucket. But if it's consistent, it's still profits. And profits is what matters. And if the parent company understands that it's a niche market and that division needs to be run by a group of people that are in, love, and understand that market, then they're happy to leave them alone and let them keep generating their small but consistent profits. As I've said before, when somebody like Hasbro looks at a company, they aren't looking for sales figures, but profits. If your line can produce 40%, 50% or more in profits, you're in a good place. If you're producing a product that's covering 7%, 10%, maybe not. A small margin works for a small company. But I think that D&D is still producing a profit margin they are happy with, so they leave it alone.

So I think that the core team at Wizards really does love gaming and love what they do, and they really are trying to put together the best game they can. Yes they also have to ensure that the bottom line meets Hasbro's goals. But those aren't mutually exclusive.

I think that they've hit a home run with this version of the rules. More importantly I think they learned a huge lesson from the 4th edition - instead of trying to change the rules to appeal to a wider audience (particularly the computer gaming audience), tie the products together. Some people will make the jump from one market to the other, others won't. So instead of a rules system that's designed to appeal to computer gamers, we have computer games, TTRPGs, some online comics, and probably in the future novels, tying together these different markets. This is a massive shift in thinking that allows the TTRPG to live in its own space without having to worry about the same type of interference as before.

My take? I think they (Hasbro and WotC) are eyeing the success of the Marvel Universe. How they've branched out into different mediums that appeal to different segments of the market to make money off of a brand instead of a product that will never appeal to everybody. Not everybody likes comics. Not everybody likes TTRPGs. Instead of trying to convert them, bring the content to them. And guess what, I'll bet it grows the TTRPG business too.

In other words, focus on the core gamers because they are the ones that are most important. Bringing in the new gamers is important, but doesn't happen if the core gamers aren't promoting the game. So the focus is on making the core gamers happy, which is a bit of a turn-around from the 4th edition.

Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2014/08/21/selling-the-new-dungeons-dragons/

Ilbranteloth

I've already made my statement and I have worked for big corps to know the trend.

If D&D actually cared about it's gaming customers then they would focus more on the game than the brand. They are using standard textbook corporate strategy. Their decisions are money directed first and foremost. If the opportunity is there to make more money at the cost of customers then you can bet your arse they will choose that route everytime.

Big companies that have multiple product lines under their belts tend to care less about their customers because they know when one is lost, two more will step forward. Magic alone makes them loads of money so they have a bit of a safety net.

Paizo doesn't have this. Who do you think is going to look after you quicker? A big chain store or a local Mom and Pop shop?

That is how you compare Wizards and Paizo. You can not believe it all you want but it's true.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Small sample sizes are irrelevant.

Of course. I offer my own experiences merely to illustrate where I'm coming from, rather than as any sort of proof.

Not that I think it's necessary to prove that 5e, which harkens back so zealously to the classic game, offers familiarity to long-time and returning players at the price of a steeper learning curve for new ones. Nor that I think that it was necessarily a bad strategy to design it that way. Consolidating the existing fan base was obviously a high priority when 5e was being developed. At the time, I was doubtful anything like the Next being playtested was going to be able to do that, but I've been pleasantly surprised by 5e, which seems not to have offended either side of the edition war badly enough to touch off a resurgence of that conflict, and is also...

But I think the common thread I see around here is simply excitement. I hadn't run a game in several years for a variety of reasons. But there are a lot of people playing now

...generating excitement! Yes.

After two years of no new D&D on the shelves, our old favorite game is back.

 

[Kramodlog]

Really? How long was 3e in print? You claimed that the reason 4e was dropped so quickly is because people complained about it on the boards. Ok, fair enough. Why was 3e dropped so quickly then?

New shinny core books = more monies. Monte Cook said that a .5 was planned from the start.

I didn't say 4e was drop because people complained. That is a strawman. I said that people complained because they didn't like 4e. If they didn't like it, they didn't buy it. If people do not buy it, WotC won't produce it.

Also, my main point was that boards are a reflection of gamers. If a lot of people say they do not like 4e and won't buy it, there is a good chance it is what a lot of people who aren't on the boards are thinking and doing. If a lot of people say D&D isn't capturing their interest because of low support, no PDF, no OGL, no promoting their up coming products, well it might mean that a lot of people who aren't the boards think it.

 

[bmfrosty]

Also, my main point was that boards are a reflection of gamers. If a lot of people say they do not like 4e and won't buy it, there is a good chance it is what a lot of people who aren't on the boards are thinking and doing. If a lot of people say D&D isn't capturing their interest because of low support, no PDF, no OGL, no promoting their up coming products, well it might mean that a lot of people who aren't the boards think it.

So like 0.1% made up of people who want something that WotC isn't making and are complaining loudly about it, 0.5% who are trying to speak reason to the 0.1%, and the rest of everyone just playing the damn game?

 

[chriton227]

So like 0.1% made up of people who want something that WotC isn't making and are complaining loudly about it, 0.5% who are trying to speak reason to the 0.1%, and the rest of everyone just playing the damn game?

I personally feel that people who have a problem with the way WotC is running their business should take their concerns and complaints to WotC directly, rather than complaining to a bunch of users who aren't employed by WotC on a forum not affiliated with WotC in any way. Communicating with WotC directly is much more likely to yield results than rabble rousing or tilting at windmills. It's like if I were going to a food blog to complain that my local fast food place didn't fill my large fries all the way instead of just talking to the manager of the fast food place.

 

[Shasarak]

Really? How long was 3e in print?

2000 to 2008. So 8 to 9 years.

 

[Shasarak]

I personally feel that people who have a problem with the way WotC is running their business should take their concerns and complaints to WotC directly, rather than complaining to a bunch of users who aren't employed by WotC on a forum not affiliated with WotC in any way. Communicating with WotC directly is much more likely to yield results than rabble rousing or tilting at windmills. It's like if I were going to a food blog to complain that my local fast food place didn't fill my large fries all the way instead of just talking to the manager of the fast food place.

CEOs of RPG companies come to the EN forums all the time. Why would I assume that the WotC would not be one of them?

 

[Sailor Moon]

CEOs of RPG companies come to the EN forums all the time. Why would I assume that the WotC would not be one of them?

Exactly!

Just because they don't post doesn't mean they aren't there.

Enworld is reputable in the RPG forum world.

 

[MerricB]

Along these lines, it's worth noting that Paizo is in some ways more of an industry leader than WotC. Not in terms of profit, probably, because they don't control a household name brand. I mean, in terms of shaping the concept of RPG products. I never really looked at Paizo this way because they are a company dedicated to "the past" (as it were) in terms of rules; i.e., their core market is folks who refused to "move on" with 4E. But when you look at HtoDQ and RoT, you see Paizo's influence very clearly.

While I don't disagree with you that Paizo has been tremendously successful, the term "industry leader" is problematic as it presumes followers; that the rest of gaming is changing its tactics to mimic what Paizo is doing. Apart from the one case of "two adventure paths per year", which Wizards seems to be following, what other of Paizo's plans are being followed?

I'm curious if any other company has Paizo's best strategy: the subscription system.

(Of course, most RPG companies can't even come close to Paizo's release schedule.)

Cheers!

 

[BryonD]

I personally feel that people who have a problem with the way WotC is running their business should take their concerns and complaints to WotC directly, rather than complaining to a bunch of users who aren't employed by WotC on a forum not affiliated with WotC in any way. Communicating with WotC directly is much more likely to yield results than rabble rousing or tilting at windmills. It's like if I were going to a food blog to complain that my local fast food place didn't fill my large fries all the way instead of just talking to the manager of the fast food place.

WotC isn't going to respond to random emails.
I debate here because it is far more fun than debating something important like politics.