D&D 5E Any reason not to let PCs add Proficiency to all Saves?

[S'mon]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that it will break bounded accuracy for low level caster enemies.

For example, low level cultists who can cast first and second level spells. Without the proficiency bonus, these guys are still somewhat dangerous to higher level enemies. With the proficiency bonus in saves, they become much less threatening to higher level PCs.

Effectively, you can only throw casters of roughly equal level or higher at the PCs. This is unlike fighter types where you can throw in a bunch and they can still be dangerous.

I've taken out 20th level Fighters in 1e with 1st level Clerics casting Command - get enough of them and he'll roll a '1'. Per RAW in 5e low level opponents in numbers seem much more dangerous than their XPV indicates, a better save chance should mitigate that a bit.

I hardly think that a +2 bonus increasing to +6 at 17th level equals a sure thing. If the save DC is 13,
for a character with stat 10 that's 7 or higher to save at 17th-20th level.
Looking at my PC group, most currently have WIS 9 (-1), giving them proficiency makes them +1 on Will saves. By 20th level they'll likely have raised WIS to 10 for net +6.

 

[KarinsDad]

At my table 5E is wrong.

That's cool.

I didn't realize that you were saying this is how it should work as opposed to this is how it does work.

 

[Sunseeker]

Ancient red and gold breath attack is DC 24 (even an ancient white is DC 22).
A non-DEX proficient PC eg Fighter with DEX 10 gets +0, is only saving on a 20. With +6 Proficiency he gets +6, saves on an 18.

A DEX +6 proficient character with DEX 20, say a Rogue, is getting +11 and saving on a 13.

(a) There is still plenty of spread.
(b) This is hardly 1e save-on-a-2 territory.

Edit: I don't understand why people are bringing up PC caster DCs. PCs will hardly ever be fighting other PCs, and NPCs are not built as PCs in 5e - eg the Archmage is an 18th level caster with +4 Proficiency
because NPC Proficiency is derived from CR, not hit dice or level. He is 18 hd but CR 12 so has +4 Prof.

Actually, I was only considering player saves enforced upon monsters, not monster saves enforced against players.

So a non-dex character has trouble saving on dex-based saves, well I hate to say it but, duh? Also, that's a fairly skewed comparison, as the Ancient Red Dragon is a CR 24, likely to be run in combination with some minions and some Lair effects. Since CR is party level/4.5 (ish), your party of 5 would arguably need to ALL be level 20 to face this dragon. If you don't have some special stuff by level 20, and the DMG provides for past-20 progression as well, then you really shouldn't be fighting an Ancient Red Dragon.

The rest of the party should of course, also be able to buff the fighter to make sure he doesn't get wasted. But we're still talking about an Ancient Red Dragon here, arguably one of the highest CRs in the book. I really feel like this is a straw man argument, yes the Ancient Red Dragon is bleeping tough and someone in your party is likely to become a kabob.

As for fighting party members, that depends entirely on your group. I have been through a LOT of party conflict in my current group, not between players so much, but between characters and yes at times it has come to blows. That aside, there are numerous AOEs which do not allow the caster to choose targets and in those cases the melee often have to suck eggs.

You want proficiency in everything? Houserule it, doesn't bother me at all. Otherwise take the feats. I feel that at a good table, the DM will "spread the love" with effects that target different stats. This is one thing I think was well learned from 4th, because in 3rd yes, it was a serious problem to have low dex because darn near everything required a dex save.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

(nt)

 

[Diamabel]

I disagree because the body has zero chance of overcoming the attack.

If you fall into lava - you die - no save

If you see Medusa you turn to stone - no save

The save is to avoid going into the "no save" situation. Using willpower to avoid looking at her, or presence of mind to be averting your eyes altogether, are reasonable.

5th is a little more forgiving than prior editions... the body DOES have a chance to fight off the effect- *if* the save is made, or is failed by a small margin.. otherwise, instant petrification.

What you are referring to is the medusas (absent in 5th) ability to beguile an enemy into looking... which would make sense to be a will save.


If you want to play it differently, go for it- but as written, in 5th, petrification gaze from a medusa attacks the body.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So a non-dex character has trouble saving on dex-based saves, well I hate to say it but, duh? Also, that's a fairly skewed comparison, as the Ancient Red Dragon is a CR 24, likely to be run in combination with some minions and some Lair effects. Since CR is party level/4.5 (ish), your party of 5 would arguably need to ALL be level 20 to face this dragon. If you don't have some special stuff by level 20, and the DMG provides for past-20 progression as well, then you really shouldn't be fighting an Ancient Red Dragon.

Shouldn't be casually fighting a Ancient Red Dragon. Or shouldn't be fighting multiples in a day. It's perfectly fine to have some Deadly fights, and in fact I'd lay good odds on the 20th level party beating the dragon handily.

Deadly Fights are memorable fights.

 

[BryonD]

5th is a little more forgiving than prior editions... the body DOES have a chance to fight off the effect- *if* the save is made, or is failed by a small margin.. otherwise, instant petrification.

What you are referring to is the medusas (absent in 5th) ability to beguile an enemy into looking... which would make sense to be a will save.


If you want to play it differently, go for it- but as written, in 5th, petrification gaze from a medusa attacks the body.

See prior comments

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Before I gave proficiency with all saves to all characters, I'd instead allow players to pick two good saves for their characters, instead of taking the default save proficiencies each class offers.

 

[Diamabel]

See prior comments

Yes, I saw your opinion.

 

[BryonD]

Yes, I saw your opinion.

It wasn't an opinion. It was a fact.

At my table 5E is wrong.