D&D 5E Would you change a monster's hit points mid-fight?

Colmarr

First Post
"Listen guys, I was trying to make this game I spent hours and hours working on more fun for you by fudging a roll or hit point total now and again. I'm sorry for ruining everything."

Sorry to res a post from 7 pages back but I thought it was important to point out that it's equally valid to say "Listen guys, I was trying to make this game I spent hours and hours working on more fun for me by fudging a roll or hit point total now and again. I'm sorry for ruining everything".

DMs have just as much right to enjoy the game as the players do. If giving your BBEG extra HP so that the combat lasts longer than it took you to stat him up is necessary for the DM's enjoyment of the game, go right ahead. Within reasonable limits of course.
 

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travathian

First Post
Not only am I rolling in the open, but I keep the sheet with the monster hp in the open as well. Keeps me from cheating there too.

So essentially all you are as a DM is a dice roller and the voice of the NPCs?


This is the problem with so many of the responses in this thread. You make it seem like it is the DM vs PCs and in order to make it 'fair' you roll in the open, so regardless of the outcome you can just throw your arms up and say "well I didn't cheat!" D&D isn't a tabletop wargame. There is no such thing as cheating.

Is it cheating to play with Legos and not build what is on the outside of the box?

Is it cheating to play with Play-doh and not make what is on the outside of the package?

D&D is a game of make believe. Treat it as such. Again, it isn't DM against PCs, it is a bunch of friends hanging out having fun playing make believe.

I can't help but notice the join dates of people in the die hard "omg that's cheating!" camp and wonder if this attitude is mostly prevalent in the 4E/WoW generation.
 

I don't fudge and would prefer not to play in a game where the DM is fudging. I also don't just slog through wood-chopping simulations, though, if an opponent has "too many" hit points and a combat is taking "too long." I try to run encounters that are sufficiently dynamic that something will change after a couple-few rounds of wood-chopping: the opponent changes tactics, the extended combat draws the attention of something/someone else, the environment changes, whatever, or better yet, the players decide to change things up before one of the above developments occur.

If you want to talk about it in Threefold terms, I prefer games where player and DM decisions are made for some mix of gamist and simulationist reasons. I've found that, in my experience, fudging doesn't support that style of play very well. I love dramatic moments in the game, of course (doesn't everyone?), but not if I know the drama has been dictated, rather than emerging spontaneously from play.

Note that the DM still has a lot of control in that kind of game. Someone earlier in thread mentioned getting an elf-killer bow, waiting around for many sessions with no elves showing up, then being shot-blocked by a broach of shielding when he finally rolled a crit on an elf. In my view, the DM made a mistake in that game, but the mistake wasn't playing the opponent as written. It was giving the PC an elf-killer bow and then not providing opportunities to kill elves -- ideally because the PC decides to go hunt some evil elves and the DM is ready and able to support that course of action. Chekov's gun, I guess.

I also know there are lots of players who just want drama, narrative and story in their games and don't want to wait around for the dice to land right. That's cool, too -- different strokes. If you and your players are having fun, you're doing it right.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
No, the answer I am looking for is the answer to the question I posed.

edit: There are obviously many reasons why you'd want to do this (play a system that generates results that bore you out of your mind), but I'm curious. I would like to know what your reasons are.

I am seriously have an issue understand what you think on this. If I said went to see a SF movie and it was so boring would ask me well if you find this one SF movie why would go see another movie.

98% of the time the game is fun it why I have been playing for +30 years. But every so often the session just sucks big time. It could be that there is to much off topic talk, or we are spinning our wheels going nowhere. The pacing can be of. The DM may not be able to handle a party that is split up and some of us are left twiddling our thumbs for hours. Instead of being exciting combat is dull.

Right of the top of my head I can think of two examples one in a Shadowrun game that I loved where the DM had myself and another player just sit at the table from 12 PM to 7PM and we didn't get to play once because he never got around to us. Another time myself and another player got stuck on the ship while the other players who access to magic went and explored underwater for the entire session.

The place where I have felt the most bored is often combat. Combat should be exciting you should feel your heart pumping and be worried that your PC may die. And when combat is like that it is wonderful. But when it turns into a darn chess game with players taking forever to take their action while they figure out the best move, or you have rules arguing going on and on and on you can see the energy as the table start to dwindle. You see the players start fooling with their phones or making dice towers or in my roommate case drawing horses.

DMs need to be intune with their players and and when they see them just disengaging they did to have ways to fix it. If it is a boring combat wrap it up quickly , if the party is spinning their wheels give them some guidance.

DMs need to know their players they need to know that the tactical players need time to plan but balance it wit the need of the story tellers to get the story moving. If you can't then your bored out of their mind story teller or method actor is going to lose patience with how long the tactical guys are taking to get on with the plan and do something to force their hands.

It is usually not the system fault that boredom happens it is usually a people issue.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
This is a good point. If there's a perceived need to fudge in this manner, it should be a rare need. I expect that just about anyone can learn to design appropriate encounters quickly enough that this shouldn't be an ongoing issue. This plays into my preference in the matter. If there's only a rare issue with a too difficult or easy encounter, I would prefer to have the issue to damaging the integrity of the game with fudging. If it's a constant issue, constant fudging might be preferable to constant hassle, but I find neither tolerable. I this case it's time for a new DM or a new game.

I think there is a large difference between very occasionally having this problem where you need to change things (whether numerically fudging numbers or narratively) and having to do it on a frequent basis. If this happens a lot, it means the DM is having issues using the (encounter building) rules to create desired scenarios. This may be due to lack of experience or bad judgement calls on the DM's behalf, or it could be a problem with the rules themselves. For example, the scenario you just provided could be avoided using something like 13th Age's escalation die to add a bonus to all rolls each round, or having a "lucky" ability or Action Points to allow rerolls or bonuses on misses... Which reminds me I need to reread the Inspiration and variant rules regarding that again.

I have noticed when ever this issue of fudging comes up there seems to be this disconnect where the people who oppose it seem to think it happens all the time. I answered yes I have changed hit die to lower on NPCs during combat and I have fudged to save a PCs life. And I firmly believe that fudging is a tool in the DMs tool box that can make the game run better. But That does not mean it should be the first tool pulled out or should be used all the time.

I can count on one hand in all the years I have been dming how many times I have fudged to save a PCs life.

I have run hundreds of encounters without having to change anything.

But it is nice to know that I have these options if I think they are needed. And personally I would not want to play with a DM who was so rigid that he puts sticking to the rules 100% of the time over making the game more enjoyable.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I can't help but notice the join dates of people in the die hard "omg that's cheating!" camp and wonder if this attitude is mostly prevalent in the 4E/WoW generation.
It'd make sense. I WoW, there is no DM to 'fudge' rolls, and in 4e there's little need for the DM to do so. So the idea might seem alien or at least surprising. A case of "kids theses days, don't how good they got it."

But, "let the dice fall where they may" has its old-school admirers, too.
 

It'd make sense. I WoW, there is no DM to 'fudge' rolls, and in 4e there's little need for the DM to do so. So the idea might seem alien or at least surprising. A case of "kids theses days, don't how good they got it."

But, "let the dice fall where they may" has its old-school admirers, too.

Yeah, this one started playing in 1980. ;)
 


The Human Target

Adventurer
Yeah I've found the opposite to be true, in my experience old schoolers tend towards running it like a simulation and letting the dice fall where they may.

But I doubt sweeping generalizations help the conversation.

I started in 3e and love 4e, and am a dirty cheater.
 
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