Venting on Sorcerer build

[lall]

It's an insult to the class if you give them better weapons, armor, hit die, etc. than the wizard gets. It's the wizard that needs more spells and a little book.

 

[ScuroNotte]

The only thing I would like is more spells known. As I said before 20 to 25 spells would be great. I do not think that would be an outrageous request.

Everything else is just a rant that sometimes a person needs to do to just blow steam. And then needs sane people to slap him back to reality, or in this case, an alternate reality.

 

[ScuroNotte]

By the same token, I wish the barbarian had better unarmored AC, had more attacks, more HP, more powerful rages. The real question here is whether the sorcerer has enough, or whether you just want more.

The only thing I would like is more spells known. As I said before 20 to 25 spells would be great. I do not think that would be an outrageous request.

Everything else is just a rant that sometimes a person needs to do to just blow steam. And then needs sane people to slap him back to reality, or in this case, an alternate reality.

 

[Minigiant]

My points are that, for example, a Warlock has d8. Why? Did his patron give him/her more fortitude? Then why can't a Sorcerer's innate inner magic increase his fortitude.
I agree with a post that the Wizard is the "poster child" of D&D. But if they need to make the Sorcerer stand out more than Sorcery Points. I do like the suggestion of giving more skills, thereby making the Wizard a great spell utility character and the Sorcerer a jack of all trades.

Above all else, I would have preferred if they would have increased their spells known to 20 to 25. It's a slap in the face to have Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights know the same number of spells.

Because the Warlock is a "Trickster" class like a Rogue. Instead of trickery via weapons and physical skill like a rogue, walocks use tricks form their patron and invocations.

The sorcerer is "nature" mage to the wizard's "nurture".

---
Look at your left hand. Look at the fingers on your left hand.
Imagine if I told you that if you wiggle those fingers in a certain order while saying a certain word related to "fire", a fireball would be casted.
No arcane formulas.
No studying books.
You're a sorcerer.
Wiggle the right fingers, say the right words to get you in the mood, and a bead of light shoots out of one of those fingers and explodes.

Do you know how long you'll be sitting there wiggling your fingers?
Suddenly spear training time gets cut since one of those finger wiggles means a fiery death to your enemies.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I agree - the problem exists for any class. If your rogue spent 12 years of their childhood as a street orphan, why are they still relatively bad at picking pockets at level 1? If high elves get weapon proficiencies from a long childhood training in swordplay, why are they completely outclassed by a farm boy who fell off the wagon, went through some rushed training, and killed a few sewer rats?

The general problem is built into D&D - experience (which mostly means killing things) trumps everything else, whether it's natural ability scores or years of backstory, and usually does it pretty quickly.

Bounded accuracy minimizes some aspects of it. For instance, a 20 DEX elf archer will out-shoot a 14-DEX human archer, even if he has 5 levels on her (yes, I'm thinking of a specific elf archer...).

But, yeah, it only reigns it in a little. Another way to represent the difference in needed training between a Sorcerer and Wizard would be starting age. If you're a sorcerer, start young - you're 18 your powers /just/ manifested and you've taken to adventuring because everyone in your home town was terrified and your old apprenticeship burned down with your master's cooperage. If you're a wizard, years of arcane study mean you're /old/ - maybe even over 30, with grey in your beard.

 

[MoonSong]

The sorcerer is "nature" mage to the wizard's "nurture".

Granted, but I get the feeling a sorcerer wouldn't get that kind of training, or a training as we understand it. If it is nature, then it all must come naturally. No old mentor to tell you the steps, but neither they being an exact science. A sorcerer training with magic would be one of two options:

1) the magic is too powerful and extensive training is required to control it. (Good for wild mages, but not exactly good for all)
2) the magic is more a matter of discovery and self experimentation, you aren't born able to cast a fireball, but that isn't because you need to learn the exact steps with precision, you just need your power to grow and figure it out. It is like with yoga, many people take time and extensive training to form a perfect lotus flower or put their legs behind their head, I can do both just because of raw flexibility all it took me was figuring out I could. This second option leaves lots of free time to do other things like learning a craft or how to use that spear, because maybe you lack the coding and the personality to develop killing spells.

 

[Chocolategravy]

Bounded accuracy minimizes some aspects of it. For instance, a 20 DEX elf archer will out-shoot a 14-DEX human archer, even if he has 5 levels on her (yes, I'm thinking of a specific elf archer...).

Even if 5E had bounded accuracy it has nothing to do with that situation. A level 6 vs. level 1 ranger, the +2 archery bonus and additional +1 proficiency equal out the DEX difference, add on top the extra attack class feature, horde breaker, hunter's mark and crossbow expert for dual hand crossbows and you will have the 14 DEX level 6 seriously outclass the 20 DEX level 1 character by a very large degree.

Situation is worse if the farmboy turned out to be a paladin fighter. With devotion and bless he could be getting +16 to hit and 2 shots per round vs. the level 1 elf having a mere +7 to hit and 1 shot.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There's no doubt the higher level character is better in overall combat ability. FWIW, I was thinking Champion Fighters - so the 1st & 6th would both have archery for the +2. The higher level one would just have the +1 proficiency - and lots of hps, action surge, and the extra attack, of course, none of which would matter in, say, an archery contest. So the all-raw-talent 20 DEX elf is up 2, in spite of being down 5 levels. Not so bad.

But, no, I'm not seriously arguing the point. It only goes so far - and those first 4 levels do (thankfully, in a way) just shoot(npi) by.

 

[Minigiant]

Granted, but I get the feeling a sorcerer wouldn't get that kind of training, or a training as we understand it. If it is nature, then it all must come naturally. No old mentor to tell you the steps, but neither they being an exact science. A sorcerer training with magic would be one of two options:

1) the magic is too powerful and extensive training is required to control it. (Good for wild mages, but not exactly good for all)
2) the magic is more a matter of discovery and self experimentation, you aren't born able to cast a fireball, but that isn't because you need to learn the exact steps with precision, you just need your power to grow and figure it out. It is like with yoga, many people take time and extensive training to form a perfect lotus flower or put their legs behind their head, I can do both just because of raw flexibility all it took me was figuring out I could. This second option leaves lots of free time to do other things like learning a craft or how to use that spear, because maybe you lack the coding and the personality to develop killing spells.

But if you spend hours learning spears and light armors, you aren't spending hours learning and unlocking new spells.

Kinda makes sense. Dragon sorcerers are tougher not through training, you get resilient the second you unlock the power. Wild mages don't get scaly skin.

Now I could see a subclass of sorcerer with weapon proficiency if the flavor says the magic is "easy". Like a family of pureblood sorcerers where your power isn't as diluted or accidental like dragon sorcerers or wild mages.

 

[neobolts]

For me, the sorcerer archetype is whatever a wizard isn't.

Wizards are trained and scholarly students of the arcane, stepping out to test the fruits of their labors.
Sorcerers are untrained and undisciplined naturals, stepping out to discover and grow their gift.