Venting on Sorcerer build

[MoonSong]

But if you spend hours learning spears and light armors, you aren't spending hours learning and unlocking new spells.

Kinda makes sense. Dragon sorcerers are tougher not through training, you get resilient the second you unlock the power. Wild mages don't get scaly skin.

Now I could see a subclass of sorcerer with weapon proficiency if the flavor says the magic is "easy". Like a family of pureblood sorcerers where your power isn't as diluted or accidental like dragon sorcerers or wild mages.

But you don't get so many spells to unlock in the first place. A 1st level sorcerer knows only two, and the most powerful ones 15 -and they are the 1%- compared with the dozens of spells an average wizard knows, that leaves plenty of free time to learn to use that spear. (And if sorcerers are truly natural casters, they should need only a fraction of the time a wizard takes to learn a cantrip). On top there's the legacy issue, every previous version of the sorcerer knew how to use spears, darts and maces.

 

[Minigiant]

But you don't get so many spells to unlock in the first place. A 1st level sorcerer knows only two, and the most powerful ones 15 -and they are the 1%- compared with the dozens of spells an average wizard knows, that leaves plenty of free time to learn to use that spear. (And if sorcerers are truly natural casters, they should need only a fraction of the time a wizard takes to learn a cantrip). On top there's the legacy issue, every previous version of the sorcerer knew how to use spears, darts and maces.

I meant 'natural" as in "something to the sorcerer's nature" no "natural" as in "naturally talented".

A sorcerer might take 5 years of experince just to learn 1 spell. For sorcerers, there is no special formulas to learn and copy. A sorcerer has to coax the spell knowledge out of oneself via raw personal will (charisma).

That's why the level20 super sorcerer only has 15 spells. Learning Sorcery is hard and/or time consuming. They can't just copy notes like wizards, learn secrets like bards, be granted new spell like warlock, or just get them like divine casters.

A D&D sorcerer has to learn every spell from scratch with little baseline to copy from except for what they discover themselves. Like being the first wizard EVER with no master to Copt techniques and formulas from. No time for spear or armor or endurance training.

 

[Rejuvenator]

A D&D sorcerer has to learn every spell from scratch with little baseline to copy from except for what they discover themselves. Like being the first wizard EVER with no master to Copt techniques and formulas from. No time for spear or armor or endurance training.

No time? That's your one-size-fits-all answer? Then elven and dwarven sorcerers would know to use spear and armour, because they've had ten times more time.

A story explanation could be made on an individual basis, but there's no default fictional reason why every sorcerer PC didn't have time to learn how to chuck a spear.

For example, I could imagine a sorcerer PC who spent his whole life as a farmer, then touches an ancient artifact, and boom! he's a level one a sorcerer, his first adventure begins immediately, and the powers blossom from there.

 

[Minigiant]

No time? That's your one-size-fits-all answer? Then elven and dwarven sorcerers would know to use spear and armour, because they've had ten times more time.

A story explanation could be made on an individual basis, but there's no default fictional reason why every sorcerer PC didn't have time to learn how to chuck a spear.

For example, I could imagine a sorcerer PC who spent his whole life as a farmer, then touches an ancient artifact, and boom! he's a level one a sorcerer, his first adventure begins immediately, and the powers blossom from there.

You could but farmer sorcerer doesn't has spear or armor proficiency unless his race does or he snags a feat. And he can't effectly practice his spells and practice weapons combat at the same time.

D&D has sorcery take as much time as wizardry to advance. Its not sometime you do on the side or fiddle with and get it at full power.

 

[Rejuvenator]

You could but farmer sorcerer doesn't has spear or armor proficiency unless his race does or he snags a feat. And he can't effectly practice his spells and practice weapons combat at the same time.

That's fine. I wasn't coming up with a story explanation for a sorcerer with spear proficiency.

D&D has sorcery take as much time as wizardry to advance.

There's nothing in the PHB insisting on that. It's not time. It doesn't matter if an adventure takes one week or one month or one year to get to level x. It's perfectly valid for sorcery powers to appear spontaneously. That could and probably even happens when someone multiclasses into sorcerer part way through an adventure.

Its not sometime you do on the side or fiddle with and get it at full power.

That's fine too. Wizard PCs aren't spending their time in school studies when they gain new spell levels, they're out in the field, having nothing to do with wizardly studies. Advancing at the same rate as sorcerers unlocking their innate powers.

 

[Herobizkit]

I agree but that's probably to limit how often that advantage class feature gets used.

I'd jump at a house rule to use the wild surge table on cantrips with the caveat that they couldn't reset that advantage feature because the wild surge table is delightful.

In my adventures, that class "advantage" gets used once, if at all.

I've since created a house rule that the Wild Surge "counter" goes up every time the player casts a spell. Eventually, he will provoke a wild surge... hopefully.

 

[Minigiant]

There's nothing in the PHB insisting on that. It's not time. It doesn't matter if an adventure takes one week or one month or one year to get to level x. It's perfectly valid for sorcery powers to appear spontaneously. That could and probably even happens when someone multiclasses into sorcerer part way through an adventure.

My point is that sorcery and wizardry take the same amount of time/effort/experience/whatever.

That's why they have similar proficiencies and hit die.

 

[OryxWild]

a question to all practicing sorcerers; My perception of the sorcerer class is that, although it's toted as being "exploding with magical power", in practice it feels like a very underwhelming version of a wizard with some neat, but not "exploding", features. In my ideal imaginary world, even an evocation specialist can't match up to the raw explosive power of a high level sorcerer.

In design terms (I ask this because I'm redesigning a number of classes as part of my homebrew campaign), I would like to see more explosive power; IE, greater access to cantrips (probably add 1 more for a total of 5-7), more low level spell slots (I'm considering adding 1-2 slots per level up to 5), more power (adding charisma modifier to all damaging spells, adding overchannel as an option), and more consequence (currently considering DC 10+spell level arcana check to successfully "control" the energies of spells above 5th level, or any overchannelled spell; potentially nasty consequences for failure).

What do all you sorc lovers out there think? What is the heart of a sorcerer? Do you think that a sorcerer can ever be as "explosive" as an evocation specialist under the current rules system? How does playing a sorcerer "Feel" - ie, do you feel powerful? Are there any sorcerers in parties with wizards of comparable level? How does that feel?

 

[famousringo]

a question to all practicing sorcerers; My perception of the sorcerer class is that, although it's toted as being "exploding with magical power", in practice it feels like a very underwhelming version of a wizard with some neat, but not "exploding", features. In my ideal imaginary world, even an evocation specialist can't match up to the raw explosive power of a high level sorcerer.

In design terms (I ask this because I'm redesigning a number of classes as part of my homebrew campaign), I would like to see more explosive power; IE, greater access to cantrips (probably add 1 more for a total of 5-7), more low level spell slots (I'm considering adding 1-2 slots per level up to 5), more power (adding charisma modifier to all damaging spells, adding overchannel as an option), and more consequence (currently considering DC 10+spell level arcana check to successfully "control" the energies of spells above 5th level, or any overchannelled spell; potentially nasty consequences for failure).

What do all you sorc lovers out there think? What is the heart of a sorcerer? Do you think that a sorcerer can ever be as "explosive" as an evocation specialist under the current rules system? How does playing a sorcerer "Feel" - ie, do you feel powerful? Are there any sorcerers in parties with wizards of comparable level? How does that feel?

Sorcerers are already pretty explosive, just tightly constrained in how they can explode. Between Quicken and Twin Spell, and perhaps with a little help from Empower and some subclass features, I'd say the sorcerer absolutely can output more raw magical power in a single combat round than any other class. It hits maximum cheese if the sorcerer takes two levels of warlock to get the best cantrip in the game and add CHA to every hit with it.

Even without that, a top level fire sorcerer can theoretically drop concentration on an extended 32d6+5 Delayed Blast Fireball in the same round he casts a quickened Meteor Swarm for 40d6+5 and a twinned Firebolt on two targets still standing for another 4d10+5, empowered all around. That's 289 average damage in one round for anybody hit by all three spells who doesn't save, before factoring rerolls or feats. An evoker could do most of that, yes, but 10d6 less on the Fireball and no cantrip followup.

Even before that point, sorcerer gets to do nasty things like twin Disintegrate, or cast a quickened Fireball in the same round he uses Telekinesis to control an opponent. Perhaps best of all, ram through a clutch save or suck spell with Heighten.

The tradeoff is that sorcerer has the least endurance (spell endurance, not physical endurance) and versatility of the arcane casters. I feel this shoves them into a "third caster" position, where you ideally don't really want one in your party unless you already have one caster ready to cover support spells and another for utility spells. The sorcerer is poorly equipped to cast the kind of divinations and mobility spells that a wizard or bard might to progress in an adventure or dungeon.

But sounds like you're on your way to making a good new sorcerer subclass. Lord knows the class needs it.

 

[Chocolategravy]

a question to all practicing sorcerers; My perception of the sorcerer class is that, although it's toted as being "exploding with magical power", in practice it feels like a very underwhelming version of a wizard with some neat, but not "exploding", features. In my ideal imaginary world, even an evocation specialist can't match up to the raw explosive power of a high level sorcerer.

Raw explosive power requires being a fighter for action surge. Sorry. Although sorcerer's quicken can help too!