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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D

Was the demise of 4e primarily caused by the attachment to the D&D brand?

  • Confirm (It was a solid game but the name and expectations brought it down)

    Votes: 87 57.6%
  • Deny (The fundamental game was flawed which caused its demise)

    Votes: 64 42.4%

The question I might pose is, if the rules of D&D 5e were the rules for D&D 4e, would the current state of D&D be any different?

If 4E had used rules more like 5E, then I am pretty sure I would have been playing 4E once, since 5E looks more like what I was hoping for at the time. I suspect there are quite a few folks like me. But there were a lot of variables. The new license agreement was also a factor. Stuff like that (and the radical shift 4E presented) both gave rise to Pathfinder. I don't think it was just 4E on its own. So it is quite hard to say.
 

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Jhaelen

First Post
The Hulk movies are actually a great example. If anybody thinks that Ang Lee's Hulk was a success, then they are probably going to be in a rather small pool. Sure, it turned a profit; Many of us paid good money to watch it, but hardly anybody actually enjoyed the movie all that much.
Well, I did. I think it was way better than the one that came after. I thought it was more true to the comic source than the newer one. It was quite different from the other Marvel movies (which are really very similar to each other, imho), but then I always felt the Hulk comics were very different from the other superhero comics, too. At least in the stories I read (and liked) Hulk was more of a tragic character.
 

What I meant was I could see the power system being used very well for a wuxia style rulebook. Just make those individual techniques (i.e. Stinging Dragon Saber Strike) and you are good to go. Wuxia has its own internal logic which 4E obviously doesn't share, but it would be pretty easy to build a system on the 4E engine that does share it.

A wuxia style would have needed wuxia-style abilities. Having the power system and individual techniques doesn't carry any implication that the abilities that result from it would have wuxia aspects to them. It's not as if western martial techniques lack in terms of named abilities.
 

A wuxia style would have needed wuxia-style abilities. Having the power system and individual techniques doesn't carry any implication that the abilities that result from it would have wuxia aspects to them. It's not as if western martial techniques lack in terms of named abilities.

I am not really trying to convince anyone to share my views on 4E or to see it as only suitable for something like wuxia. I am just explaining how the game felt to me. For me 4E feels a better fit for the wuxia genre, which lends itself to over the top techniques. Sure, western attacks have names, but we don't have the genre conventions of the fighter who can drain your life force or spin through the air like a super hero and take off the heads of ten men. You could certainly use it for 300 style play, so it isn't like it has no place in a campaign set in western setting, but to me it just felt more suited to what I want for my wuxia campaigns than what I want in my standard D&D campaigns. Yes the system would have needed specifically wuxia techniques, but the structure of the powers was a good basis for that. YMMV.
 

Zak S

Guest
4e made changes which made it easy to plan a relatively long (more than 2 rounds) fight with mechanically distinct phases that change round to round (first we're here, then we're here, now this guy is on fire) and characters that can get hit over and over and not die which are things very characteristic of kung fu movies.

That can happen in other kinds of movies and other kinds of editions, but in 4e they are easy to arrange and in kung fu flicks they are practically guaranteed.

That's why I said my initial comment about 4e.
 

4e made changes which made it easy to plan a relatively long (more than 2 rounds) fight with mechanically distinct phases that change round to round (first we're here, then we're here, now this guy is on fire) and characters that can get hit over and over and not die which are things very characteristic of kung fu movies.

That can happen in other kinds of movies and other kinds of editions, but in 4e they are easy to arrange and in kung fu flicks they are practically guaranteed.

That's why I said my initial comment about 4e.

The rapid heals also were on my mind as well. While I wasn't a fan of healing surges in 4E, when I ran 3E Wuxia using the oriental adventures book I ported in a healing surge mechanic so the characters could fight, then use their Chi to heal themselves.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Bedrockgames said:
What I meant was I could see the power system being used very well for a wuxia style rulebook. Just make those individual techniques (i.e. Stinging Dragon Saber Strike) and you are good to go.
Sure. It's a strength of the AEDU system and the keyword & power formats that they can be readily adapted to a new theme, class, or even whole genre/setting. If 3pps hadn't been confronted with the toxic GSL, but gotten a 4e SRD, you'd probably have seen exactly the kind of rulebook you're talking about, among many others. You could probably get a fair bit of the way there just by re-skinning, but a few full-discipline 'psionic' classes to go with the Monk would do it in style.

A wuxia style would have needed wuxia-style abilities. Having the power system and individual techniques doesn't carry any implication that the abilities that result from it would have wuxia aspects to them. It's not as if western martial techniques lack in terms of named abilities.
Sure. No more than D&D having the odd proper noun in the spell names made it the Dr Strange RPG. But you could certainly play it up that way if you wanted to, and re-name all your spells in that style. ("Cast 'Sleep?' Bah! I conjure the Melancholy Mists of Morpheus!")
 

Erechel

Explorer
The more I hear how others are disappointed by their expectations, the gladder I am that I have a talent for appreciating the unexpected. The mixed reaction to 4e really drove home for me how variable peoples' tolerance for change is, and how exceptional I am for being relatively accepting of it.

You have some ego, dude, that's why I laugh. "I have talent for appreciating the unexpected". Only that, for me, 4 ed have some great ideas in a vast sea of meh. The "revolutionary" ideas (rituals, fighter maneuvers) were the better part of 4 edition. But the part I didn't buy is the whole concept of "build". It's a munchkinesque, slow and generally boring game. Is like a chess game without clocks or TEG (the argentinian version of ¿Risk, I think?) without time limits. I'll enumerate what things I disliked the most and why:

1) Rules heavy, optimization focused skirmish game: Power creeps and superheroic feeling. It's a game perfectly designed for munchkins, whom care for no other than reduce foes to 0 hp to "level up". It has a explicit metagaming factor so crucial that make thinking outside the box clearly NOT an option. You have three dump stats. Why bother in Charisma or Intelligence if you are a fighter? Your stats MUST be Constitution, Strenght, and maybe Wisdom or Dexterity (you chose whom, the other to the trash can). If you chose Charisma as your second stat, you are clearly playing wrong. This factor was present in 3e too, and that was one of the factors I didn't like from it, but at least permitted certain openness to the unexpected. 2e had this factor too, but clearly not so present, as it was messy and ery prone to improvisation. So "revolutionary" my balls. Munchkins are older than dirt in D&D, but this game actively encourages them.

2) Dissociated mechanics: Linked to the above, the dissociated mechanics are idiotic. No, maybe not idiotic, but in the better scenario, they are the lesser evil (hp, for example). There are tons of articles explaining this (Justin Alexander is one of those). You will expect a certain amount of it, because at a certain point they are inevitable, but 4th ed was a game actually made of dissociated mechanics.

3) Straight-jacketed party roles: You expect certain amounts of party roles, but at least give them certain fluidity. A fighter can be a leader; the party negotiator; the defender; the tactician; the lightining bruiser; or the skinny, apparently frail dude that uses a bow to knock down knights in charge with the speed of light. But no... not even the "mighty glacier". Not even the "Lightning Bruiser". You are a tank (not a real, fast, heavy artillery from real life, but the party role from LoL). A slow meatshield. Boring.

4) Exponential power grow: Fading Suns was going at the time on other direction. And maybe Withewolf. Here? Still HP, but only more. At 9th level, you cannot fight anymore with orcs, because you destroy them in a blink (if you can manage through the speed combat with ease). The only way to make them a little effective is to label them "minions" and throw them in masse, guided by some dragon or such. That was the case too of AD&D and D&D 3.5. I never played OD&D, but i bet that this was present too. So a flaw present on previous editions, only made worse. This is "unexpected"? Only if you seriously think that people will change. I will have appreciated a flatter scalade of power, were an army of orcs actually presents a serious threat to a party by the sheer numbers, but a party can take marauders with relative ease. But here? Being stabbed does not kill you. Not even to a 1º level mage. Of course, you are a superhero, but... you can't be Superman or Thor, because they are fighters both strong and durable. You have to choose one of the two variables.

5) Inverosimilitude: All the previous point redund at this. Dissociated mechanics put arbitrary limits to common sense. Munchkins are so powerful that is difficult to see why they don't rule the campaign worlds. Power grow mades many of the fundations of the fictional universe muddy and non believable. You aren't prone to actually believe that you are in a fantasy world, and take in-game sensitive choices: you only "exploit" your metagaming skills as a player, not your character's strengths.

As you see, my objections are mostly historical. All previous editions have already show this problems. But I liked AD&D, (I prefered Fading Suns nonetheless when I was playing both) although when played it I have to house rule a lot; I can stand 3rd, until a certain point (it certainly creeps me out how to make a fighter/sorcerer/barbarian/druid from a roleplaying standpoint and not over a metagaming point). I love 5ed (because most of this flaws are polished, or thoroughly corrected).
4ed an improve? An "Advance"? No, it is a stepback to Chainmail. At best, is a polished Chainmail, but for that kind of game, I actually prefer play TEG or Warhammer. Or Age of Empires.
Yet I not want to attack those whom enjoy it. I'm only "reacting" to a condescendant prick that thinks "my thing is better. Period. Everything else is just naked indians screaming over the deforestation. Even the new indians like 5ed"
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
You have some ego, dude, that's why I laugh. "I have talent for appreciating the unexpected". Only that, for me, 4 ed have some great ideas ... The "revolutionary" ideas (rituals, fighter maneuvers) were the better part of 4 edition.
It doesn't take any special talent or l33tness to appreciate a clear/balanced game. Heck, that's part of the point of writing it clearly in the first place, that just anyone can appreciate it - accessibility.

That probably contributed to the edition war, with some folks being worried that their hobby might become less exclusive.

But the part I didn't buy is the whole concept of "build".
It was a hold-over from 3.x - as presented in the PH1, 'builds' (along with the comically obvious frostcheese) prettymuch undercut the 3.x style optimization/system-mastery obsession. The meta-game is no fun if they just walk you to the finish line, so you go back to the actual game.

2) Dissociated mechanics: Linked to the above, the dissociated mechanics are idiotic.
Not idiotic so much as disingenuous. They were defined into being strictly for use in the edition war, yet, when you go back and apply the definition to earlier eds (or other games), they're absolutely everywhere. Even worse, the poster boys for dissociation in the original article that spawned the term were not dissociative, as presented in the game, only as re-interpreted by some fans obsessing over realism...

3) Straight-jacketed party roles: You expect certain amount of party roles, but at least give them certain fluidity.
Most classes did have secondary roles and you could emphasize them to the point of being adequate in them. Battlerager and Greatweapon fighters could rival strikers, for instance. Paladins could do some fine leader stuff. Really emphasizing it meant sacrificing your primary role a little, but that's only to be expected. But, where the flexibility around roles really came in was in classes & sources. If you wanted to play an archanist, you didn't have to play a controller, you could play a striker or leader, or even defender. To the extent that the designers came through with complete role coverage for each source, that is...

A fighter can be a leader; the party negotiator; the defender; the tactician; the lightining bruiser; or the skinny, apparently frail dude that uses a bow to knock down knights in charge with the speed of light.
A fighter couldn't be most of those things in most editions. In 4e, though, a martial character could be any of them. The 'fighter' class covered fewer archetypes, because it was no longer alone in covering martial archetypes (the rogue was more combat-capable, the ranger no longer cast spells, and the warlord was added to the game). The rogue covered more than it could before, the Ranger was no longer the stereotypical woodsy-caster Grizzly Adams, and the Warlord finally delivered on archetypes that D&D had never been able to successfully model before.

As you see, my objections are mostly historical. All previous editions have this problems, but I liked AD&D, but I prefered Fading Suns and when played it I have to house rule a lot
It's often easier to cope with a familiar problem than to cope with an unfamiliar solution, no matter how good that solution may theoretically be.

and I love 5ed (because most of this flaws are polished
That's an interesting way of putting it. I too really appreciate 5e's retro feel. I can run it very much like I did AD&D, free-wheeling, improvised - tossing, overriding and changing rules secure in the knowledge there's no delicate balance to upset - all in the service of the campaign I'm creating. And, yes, it is because many of the old flaws are back... Back but 'polished.' I like it. :)
 

Erechel

Explorer
Off course, I do not complain about balance or cleariness. Somewhat it is exactly my point. If 4 ed wasn't a D&D game, of course I did not even bother in test it, discuss it or even critizice it. I instead would ignore the whole thing as a bearable but not genius game. But it is D&D, so it has press over it. One would expect certain flaws to be corrected, after all, you have the best resources available: the tons of players that already play and played D&D, the tons of game designers, and the history itself, both of victories and mistakes.

All i'm saying is that the game fail for his own faults, that aren't at all new.

I recognize several great points to 4th edition. Eladrin, for example, are the way I've always play elves. Tactical battle game is not a problem for me, but it would be a mistake to say that you cannot play a tactical battle without calling distance "squares" (as OD&D). My old players could manage to play AD&D very tactical, but somewhat much faster than 4th. They easily (for example) defeat basilisks at first level, or win in a big scale battle (with literally hundreds of soldiers on each side), against better armed and trained soldiers (they leaded a bunch of ragtags, pirates, goblins and a few orcs against heavy infantry (level 2 fighters), cavalry and crossbowmen leaded by a few 8th level knights), without a wizard throwing fireballs or a cleric healing wounds. They were three players playing warriors and one playing a thief.
One of the warriors was a chain mailed elf with shield an longsword, leader of the cavalry; the other a half-orc with a big cleave and studded basilisk (high quality, though, but not magic) leather armor, the leader of the goblins and orcs; and the other a myrmidon (fighter's kit), leader of the few heavy infantry. The thief was only a thief, but with high charisma, and the pirates leader. They poisoned the water supplies (not to kill but to hinder), use the territory on their advantage, and light cavalry to take the retaguard and the enemies' camp of their hands while they were attacking. It was memorable. And tactical. And I didn't bend a single rule (I've used a warfare supplement to manage the troops). They out think me, and it was fabulous, and took less than half session. My new players hate my old players because I was very concerned on how to beat them farily once, and I often throw at the parties deadly encounters.

In 5ed they could do the same thing. Only better. Tactical is not always choose what "melee spell" to use. Fluidity implies that given a certain course of action, a player can more or less effectively achieve his goals. Charge rules? They are fore every one. A spear does double damage, and I don't need a feat for that.
Fluidity means, for me, general rules and specific exceptions, like Magic. On the average, anyone can make anything, only certain people do it a bit worse, and some people do it a bit better.

Combat maneuvers are cool, but the compel for optimization is not.

And it would be a mistake to say that 5ed doesn't draw anything from 4ed, or that it is an "unbalanced" game. Although there are clearly better character options for certain types of games, all classes are equally capable, and all the multiclassing cheese is severly thwarted. Is not a "broken" game: the books actually give hints and direction to improvisation and creative thinking. It's not a question of metagaming balance here, like it would
 

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