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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D

Was the demise of 4e primarily caused by the attachment to the D&D brand?

  • Confirm (It was a solid game but the name and expectations brought it down)

    Votes: 87 57.6%
  • Deny (The fundamental game was flawed which caused its demise)

    Votes: 64 42.4%

You and Tony are literally the only people I've ever seen complain about Power Attack being dissociative. Even before dissociative was a concept, I never heard one single complaint about Power Attack creating a gap between what your character is doing in the setting
In that case you haven't been following the discussion very closely. Other posters have raised it on these boards. I have been critical of Power Attack in all its forms ever since I encountered it: it's a terrible mechanic that is a trap for the maths-weak and trades on a mechanical oddity of the system (namely, the separation of to hit and damage rolls).

I don't call it dissociated except in inverted commas ("dissociated"), because I think "dissociation" is a spurious label - the label metagame already existed and does the job, and is not pejorative in the way "dissociated" is. And Power Attack is absolutely a metagame mechanic. (Contrast, say, 3E's fighting defensively, which is not metagame and actually correlates to meaningful elements of the fiction.)

It is about how common the complaint is with a mechanic.
What has this got to do with anything? Did Justin Alexander do some polling before he wrote his essay? Where does he talk about "how common the complaint is"?

How common a complaint is tells me nothing about a mechanic except how popular or unpopular it is. Which seems to vindicate [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s suggestion that "dissociated" is simply a way of dressing up "metagame mechanic that I (and others) don't like".

No one that I'm aware of disputes that 4e has metagame mechanics. For reasons that are utterly opaque to me, some people dispute that Gygax's classes, levels, XP, hit points and saving throws were metagame, despite him writing long essays to this effect in his DMG (for all of them except class).

3E replaced metagame saving throws with non-metagame ones - Fort, Ref, Will - which in my view was a major step backwards in D&D design. It tried to make classes non-metagame also (look at NPC classes, Prestige Classes, multi-classing rules, etc), another step backwards in my view. For me, 4e is true to those metagame elements of Gygaxian D&D and develops them in new directions.

The fact that many other people have different preferences isn't relevant to me, and doesn't have any implications for my preferences. I don't need a pseudo-theory like The Alexandrian's to justify my preferences to me. I just need to know what I enjoy in a FRPG.
 

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Someone who can overlook rage or stunning fist, might not be able to overlook every single character having large numbers of abilities like that.
Sure. My point is that what [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] said is not a true description of D&D. D&D has always contained daily powers that are not mystical.

I'm sure what Wicht said is a true statement of preference, and it may be that 3E can easily be adapted to meet those preferences (eg by ignoring rage or stunning fist, or rewriting them as SU) whereas 4e can't.

That doesn't change the fact that D&D was not always, and in general, as Wicht claimed it to be.
 

The only posters I've seen complain about it are you and the handful of people are always showing up when this debate arises Pemerton.

Again, I am not going to spend more time trying to convince you of anything here, because past history has shown me the futility of these discussions. If you don't buy into dissociative as a concept, no skin off my back. But it works for me and I think it offers one explanation of why parts of 4E annoyed some people.
 

Sure. My point is that what [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] said is not a true description of D&D. D&D has always contained daily powers that are not mystical.

.

Again it is about how weighed down the system is with it. Things like stunning fist here or there are easy to overlook. Daily powers that tie to magic and supernatural stuff are easy to explain. Taking those few instances where you do have the occasional daily or 5/day power and then building a whole game around it that gives mundane characters those abilities is different. I'm not saying it is bad design. I am not saying it makes 4E awful. But some of us had an issues with fighters and thieves having abilities like that. Maybe we're too stupid to see how it obviously makes sense if you really think about it. Maybe we're just meanies. But at the end of the day, this seriously popped me out of immersion because there was this disconnect between what is going on and the setting explanation for why it is going on (at least for me). Barbarian Rage five times a day was stupid in my view but it wasn't systemic in the way AEDU were.
 

On 5e's backgrounds, I assume you realise that they are a development of the 4e mechanics of background and theme.

5e's rules for inspiration are a substantial development in a story-driven direction. (For D&D. Not for RPGs as such.) They could easily be adapted to 4e by anyone who wanted to do so.

Actually, the backgrounds are back to AD&D (the game that you seem to dislike) kits. Even with the skills (in AD&D NWP) incorporated. It is certainly not a 4th edition innovation, although the game actually can crave of this. And as I said earlier, many things of 4th edition are good, when implemented in a different context.

But, Pemerton, why I do have to implement time and effort to fix a game I don't like in the first time? Yes, I can fix short rests to be 1 hour and long rests 8 hours. I can implement complex Exhaustion rules to drive off fighter's daily powers, or better up their "at-will" ground to be a more reliable character and get rid of vancian daily powers. I can implement Advantage to fasten up combats, and flatten the power scaladeand mini bonus. I can get off the party roles and make them more flexible and fluid, without being pressed on every class. I can even module to add social and adventuring skills that are a trade-off of combat. Or get rid of the "squares" term and replace it for meters, and don't rely as heavily on grids an miniatures, while still use them.

I wont. I already have my shinny new toy, so I don't want to fix an old, ugly one. I would do it for AD&D, my old and beloved toy, because I loved that game and I did not find it as flawed as you may think, but I don't need to anymore. The better parts of 4th edition are still present in 5th edition, as the better of AD&D and 3.5. And it has his own flavor, like all the things that I could implement to 4th edition.

And sorry if I offended you prior. You have seen the pedantery in the posts of Tony Vargas (now in my ignoring list) and Tequila Sunrise (he at least tried to apologize), so you are clearly not my objective when I reacted violently. As you were valid to be offended in which you percieved as a prick calling you munchkin, I can call my rights to not being insulted and called a dinosaur, reactionary prick because I-don't-like-that-game as a whole.
 

Just a point about things like inspiration, a lot of the people who complained about 4E disrupting their immersion were also not fans of inspiration. For many though, it was clear that stuff like this was more sporadic in 5E when we read the book. It looked like a compromise rather than a doubling down. When I read 5E my impression was "yeah they left some 4E stuff in there I don't like (or things in the spirit of it) but they also took most of the stuff out I didn't like and they replaced it with things I do like. I haven't played 5E yet, so we'll have to see how it runs. On reading through the book a bit, and I haven't done so deeply because I am busy with other systems right now, it looks promising, more like older editions but with a bit of anew spin. It is obvious this was written for the entire fan base though, not just people like me. So I expect there to be stuff in there i don't care for. It is simply a mater of how easy it is to overlook those things where they come up or ignore them.
 

I'm not here to defend Justin Alexander's stance on Wushu versus 4E. I've read the essay as well. That isn't the only place he gets into the subject and he does clarify his position further throughout the essay.

<snip>

But he does continue to talk about Wushu for paragraphs after your quote
Not really. I quoted everything relevant that he says about Wushu, in post 107 upthread and again in the post that you quoted. I'll quote it again if you like, including a bit more tedious detail about scene-based resolution:

Instead of determining the outcome of a particular action, scene-based resolution mechanics determine the outcome of entire scenes.

For example, in Wushu players describe the actions of their characters. These descriptions are always true. Instead of saying, “I try to hit the samurai”, for example, you would say: “I leap into the air, drawing my swords in a single fluid motion, parrying the samurai’s sword as I pass above his head, and land behind him.”

Then you roll a pool of d6’s, with the number of dice being determined by the number of details you put into your description. For example, in this case you would roll 4 dice: “I leap into the air (1), drawing my swords in a single fluid motion (2), parrying the samurai’s sword as I pass above his head (3), and land behind him (4).”

Based on Wushu‘s mechanics, you then count the number of successes you score on the dice you rolled and apply those successes towards the total number of successes required to control the outcome of the scene. If you gather enough successes, you determine how the scene ends.

In practice, it’s more complicated than that. But that’s the essential core of what’s happening.

BENEFITS OF DISSOCIATION

Clearly, a scene-based resolution mechanic is dissociated from the game world. The game world, after all, knows nothing about the “scene”. In the case of Wushu, for example, you can end up defeating the samurai just as easily by carefully detailing a tea ceremony as by engaging in flashy swordplay. The dice you’re rolling have little or no connection to the game world — they’re modeling a purely narrative property (control of the scene).

The disadvantage of a dissociated mechanic, as we’ve established, is that it disengages the player from the role they’re playing. But in the case of a scene-based resolution mechanic, the dissociation is actually just making the player engage with their role in a different way (through the narrative instead of through the game world).

The advantage of a mechanic like Wushu‘s is that it gives greater narrative control to the player. This narrative control can then be used in all sorts of advantageous ways. For example, in the case of Wushu these mechanics were designed to encourage dynamic, over-the-top action sequences: Since it’s just as easy to slide dramatically under a car and emerge on the other side with guns blazing as it is to duck behind cover and lay down suppressing fire, the mechanics make it possible for the players to do whatever the coolest thing they can possibly think of is (without worrying about whether or not the awesomeness they’re imagining will make it too difficult for their character to pull it off).

Is this style of play for everybody? No.

Personally, I tend to think of it as a matter of trade-offs: There are advantages to focusing on a single role like an actor and there are advantages to focusing on creating awesome stories like an author. Which mechanics I prefer for a given project will depend on what my goals are for that project.

TRADE-OFFS

And it’s important to understand that everything we’re talking about is about trade-offs.

In the case of Wushu, fidelity to the game world is being traded off in favor of narrative control. In the case of 4th Edition, fidelity to the game world is being traded off in favor of a tactical miniatures game.

So why can I see the benefit of the Wushu-style trade-off, but am deeply dissatisfied by the trade-offs 4th Edition is making?​

That last question is rhetorical - Alexander doesn't answer it, but goes on to say things like:

There is a meaningful difference between an RPG and a wargame. And that meaningful difference doesn’t actually go away just because you happen to give names to the miniatures you’re playing the wargame with and improv dramatically interesting stories that take place between your tactical skirmishes.

To put it another way: I can understand why you need to accept the disadvantages of dissociated mechanics in order to embrace the advantages of narrative-based mechanics.​

What Justin Alexander appears not to have noticed is that 4e is not a wargame with "improv taking place between tactical skirmishes", but is rather a RPG based (like Wushu) around scene-based resolution, with a series of player resources that serve as (what he calls, rather imprecisely) "narrative-based mechanics".

What informational content is there in the screed I've quoted? All it tells anyone is that Alexander likes Wushu, and the tropes it supports via its mechanical systems, but not 4e and the tropes it supports via its mechanical systems.

He thinks that narrating my guy sliding under a truck with guns blazing is awesome (though "not for everybody"); but having my guy be charged by the goblins and then cutting them down (CaGI) is not awesome. Why the difference in judgment? No explanation is forthcoming. He should have concluded that, just like Wushu, perhaps 4e is "not for everybody". Instead he goes on a wild rant about it not being a RPG. What powerful analysis!

There is also a bit about Wushu in relation to skill challenges, which I ignored upthread because all it does is show that Justin Alexander hasn't read the skill challenge rules:

The basic dissociation of the skill challenge mechanics lie in their nature as scene-based mechanics. Because they still use skill checks, this can be a little more masked than it was in the case of the Wushu example we looked at before, but the dissociation is still there.

Basically, the skill challenge mechanics don’t care what the PCs are doing — they only care how much the PCs have done. . . .

Okay, so we’ve established that the skill challenge mechanics are dissociated. Why is that a problem?

Because, unlike the Wushu mechanics, the skill challenge mechanics don’t seem to actually be accomplishing much. You’re making all the sacrifices inherent in the use of dissociated mechanics, but you aren’t gaining anything in return.

Most notably, the skill challenge mechanics aren’t giving the players any meaningful narrative control.​

Skill challenges are responsive to what the PCs are doing, and do give the players meaningful narrative control (in the sense of giving the players the capacity to shape the content of the shared fiction). Here are the relevant passages from the DMG (pp 73 and 74, but quoted by me in reverse sequence):

You [the GM] describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. . . .

Always keep in mind that players can and will come up with ways to use skills you do not expect. Stay on your toes, and let whatever improvised skill uses they come up with guide the rewards and penalties you apply afterward. Remember that not everything has to be directly tied to the challenge. Tangential or unrelated benefits, such as making unexpected allies from among the duke’s court or finding a small, forgotten treasure, can also be fun.​

In other words, Justin Alexander is just wrong. Skill challenges in 4e are, in basic function, no different from closed scene resolution that are found in a range of RPGs (Maelstrom Storytelling, HeroWars/Quest, Burning Wheel, Marvel Herioc RP, just to name some of the ones I'm familiar with). Because they involve players rolling all the dice, they give rise to some GMing challenges (a bit like DungeonWorld in that respect) which the books don't give very good advice on (the DMG 2 is better in this respect than the DMG, though).

But they absolutely are responsive to the actions declared by the players for their PCs.

It's also ironic, from such a fan of 3E, to see complaints about not caring what the PCs do but simply how much they do. Could there be any better description of combat by way of hit point attrition? (Which is why 4e is the only version of D&D combat that I really enjoy, because moreso than any other version it does make considerations other than hit point attrition relevant, such as positioning and condition infliction.)
 

Try it, Bedrock. It's truly a great game: intuitive, immersive, easy, balanced. But I certainly miss the players rules of spell investigation that I liked in AD&D. I maybe can implement a house rule to that, basing me in the guides of the DMG (after all, it is possible to add new spells to the game).
 

The only posters I've seen complain about it are you and the handful of people are always showing up when this debate arises Pemerton.
And? I see the same half-dozen or so people dragging out "dissociated mechanics" in these discussions too.

If my opinion is as valid as yours, why is it relevant that it's my opinion?

If certain mechanics "leap out at me" - AD&D healing spells, Power Attack, etc - why is that not relevant to questions of "dissociation"? I mean, that's the criterion you stated.

Unless "dissociation" is just a label for (un)popularity.
 

why I do have to implement time and effort to fix a game I don't like in the first time?
I don't know what you're talking about here. I haven't told you to fix anything.

All I've done is reply to your contention that 4e is a game for munckins with no story or roleplaying. I posted some links to actual play posts to illustrate my point, but if you've followed those links you haven't made any comment on them.
 

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