Is it legal to Combine Feats?

[ksbsnowowl]

The section on Stacking on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG speaks to this.

That section has to do with NAMED bonuses. From that page:

Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.

Do any of the bonuses granted from Weapon Focus, Power Attack, or Point Blank Shot use any of the named bonus types on page 21 of the DMG? No, they don't. They are UNNAMED bonuses.

Now, check out the definition of "bonus" from the glossary in the back of the Player's Handbook:

bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don’t have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.

Also, that [would] mean that Power Attack cannot be combined with a Feat like Weapon Focus, too. The effect on the attack roll would not stack.

Thoughts?

See the Nycaloth on page 203 of the Monster Manual 3. His attack line calculates in both Power Attack usage and Weapon Focus.

 

[Water Bob]

I've been the player I described, though. Playing under a DM that didn't understand the game, and it was... not a fun experience.

Also realize that you have no idea what my situation is. In truth, I was trying to figure out how an action in a story could be translated to the game, and it made me think of this.

In addition, I'm a GM that investigates rules and looks for the opinion of others. That's why I posted. To either confirm my thought or take something with me to think about.



And...you were not the only one...there was one other who responded like you did.

"What do you mean the Ring of Protection we found won't stack with my armor?"
"Don't question my authoritah!"

The Ring of Protection doesn't stack with magical armor. That is specific in the rules.


EDIT: I'm wrong here. I kept reading, and I see that the example goes on to say that a ring of protection and armor can work together.

That section has to do with NAMED bonuses. From that page:

Do any of the bonuses granted from Weapon Focus, Power Attack, or Point Blank Shot use any of the named bonus types on page 21 of the DMG? No, they don't. They are UNNAMED bonuses.

Now, check out the definition of "bonus" from the glossary in the back of the Player's Handbook:




See the Nycaloth on page 203 of the Monster Manual 3. His attack line calculates in both Power Attack usage and Weapon Focus.

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

So...what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

 

[Keith Robinson]

As already pointed out, unnamed bonuses stack - it's only named bonuses that don't (except for Dodge, of course, which is an exception to the rule).

As has also already been pointed out - you really should run it as you want to. It's your game after all and as long as you're up front with the players from the get-go, I don't see why there should be any real problems with that.

 

[Dandu]

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

According to The Rules of the Game, that would be because the former are both Enhancement bonuses to strength, and the latter are all armor bonuses. Except for the Ring of Protection, which is a Protection bonus, and which stacks with the others. And Divine Favor provides luck bonuses to attack and damage, which isn't even the same field as bonuses to AC.

 

[Water Bob]

As has also already been pointed out - you really should run it as you want to. It's your game after all and as long as you're up front with the players from the get-go, I don't see why there should be any real problems with that.

Of course I will. I like to know the rules as written, though.

I haven't been saying, "My way is the LAW, and all of you are wrong." I've been saying, "I think the rules says this, and this is why. What are your thoughts?"

 

[ksbsnowowl]

The Ring of Protection doesn't stack with magical armor. That is specific in the rules.

Wrong. See below.

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

You are completely missing the point of what the sidebar is trying to point out. A belt of giant strength doesn't stack with the bull's strength spell, because they both provide an enhancement bonus to strength.

Mage Armor provides an armor bonus, so does plate armor (and to a greater extent, magical plate armor). Like bonuses do not stack. Two different armor bonuses? You only get one of them, because two armor bonuses don't stack.

You forgot to keep reading the entirety of the sidebar. Here, I'll reproduce the important part for you:

Likewise, a character with [lots of bonus types] would be unbalanced if all his bonuses were cumulative.
...
For instance, note that some of the items from the previous example—the magic plate armor, the ring, and the divine favor spell, for example—could work together, because they provide bonuses of different types.

It's pointing out that not all bonuses will stack (those of the same type), but some of them will. Could they have worded it better, sure. But they still clearly state that the bonuses of different types DO stack.

So...what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

No they don't. They are untyped bonuses, which always stack, and you were misreading the sidebar to begin with.

 

[Water Bob]

Wrong. See below.



You are completely missing the point of what the sidebar is trying to point out. A belt of giant strength doesn't stack with the bull's strength spell, because they both provide an enhancement bonus to strength.

Mage Armor provides an armor bonus, so does plate armor (and to a greater extent, magical plate armor). Like bonuses do not stack. Two different armor bonuses? You only get one of them, because two armor bonuses don't stack.

You forgot to keep reading the entirety of the sidebar. Here, I'll reproduce the important part for you:


It's pointing out that not all bonuses will stack (those of the same type), but some of them will. Could they have worded it better, sure. But they still clearly state that the bonuses of different types DO stack.

No they don't. They are untyped bonuses, which always stack, and you were misreading the sidebar to begin with.

Again, I think you guys have persuaded me. Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[Dandu]

Seriously, there's an entire series dedicated to explaining the rules of the game.

Let's get started with the Armor Class of the example character now!

Armor Class

Our example character has a wealth of Armor Class improvements:

+7 armor bonus (+2 chainmail)
+2 shield bonus (heavy shield)
+1 deflection bonus (ring of protection +1)
+2 natural armor (barkskin spell)
+2 Dexterity bonus (the character's Dexterity is 17, thanks to the cat's grace spell, but chainmail allows only a +2 Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, says Table 7-6 in the Player's Handbook).
+4 armor bonus (mage armor spell)
+4 shield bonus (shield spell)
+2 deflection bonus (shield of faith spell)

That's a lot of bonuses, but all the bonuses with the same names overlap, so we're left with the following:

+7 armor bonus (+2chainmail)
+2 natural armor (barkskin spell)
+2 bonus from Dexterity (from the cat's grace spell, as limited by the chainmail)
+4 shield bonus (shield spell)
+2 deflection bonus (shield of faith spell)
That's a total bonus of +17 to Armor Class, giving our example human (who has a base Armor Class of 10 with no size adjustment) an Armor Class of 27.

Please note a couple of things here:

Multiple Enhancement Bonuses: The character is effectively getting two enhancement bonuses to Armor Class (from the +2 chainmail and the barkskin spell), and that works in this case because those two bonuses are being applied to two different elements of the character's Armor Class.

WhereEnhancement Bonuses Apply: In general, an enhancement bonus goes with a specific item a character uses, or with one of the user's abilities or other statistics. The example character's touch Armor Class is only 14, because a touch attack bypasses the character's armor bonus (including the +2 from the magic armor), natural armor bonus (including the +2 from the barkskin spell), and shield bonus. Those enhancement bonuses don't float around the character, warding off harm; they improve a specific aspect of the character's defenses.

Overlapping Bonuses are Still in Place: This can become significant when dealing with Armor Class. For example, our human has an Armor Class of 24 against an incorporeal touch attack, as follows:

Base 10
+2 Dexterity: The chainmail's Dexterity cap still applies, even though the chainmail itself can't block the attack.
+4 shield bonus: The shield spell works against the attack because it is a force effect.
+4 armor bonus: The mage armor spell works against the attack because it is a force effect. (But, neither the chainmail's +2 enhancement bonus nor the barkskin's +2 enhancement bonus improve the mage armor's armor bonus.)
+2 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell.

 

[pemerton]

if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack.

That's because they're both Enhancement bonuses.

Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

What the text you're referring to acutally says is that "a character with mage armour, magic plate armour, a ring of protection, and a divine favour spell would be unbalanced if all his bonuses were cumulative." It is a general statement of policy, not a piece of rules interpretation.

Divine Favour grants a Luck bonus to attack and damage, so I don't see how it is relevant to a discussion of stacking bonuses to AC.

The bonus from Mage Armour is an Armour bonus, and hence won't stack with the Armour bonus provided by plate armour. The magical bonus on magical plate armour is an Enhancement bonus, so is cumulative with the armour bonus provided by the armour but (I believe) will not enhance the Armour bonus provided by the Mage Armour spell, if that were somehow trumping the larger Armour bonus from the plate armour.

The bonus from a Ring of Protection is a Deflection bonus, and so stacks with all of the above (this is a marked difference between 3E and AD&D).

So in the example given, the only bonus that has no effect on the character's overall stats is the Mage Armour spell, which does not stack with the Armour + Enhancement bonus provided by the magical plate armour.

what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

They are both untyped bonuses. And they are from different named game elements. Therefore they do not fall foul of stacking rules in either 3E or 4e (the only two editions of D&D to have systematic stacking rules).

 

[nijineko]

the specific rule you are looking for that might clarify is that "untyped bonuses stack". most feats do not give a type for their bonus, which means they default to untyped. unless the feat otherwise so indicates, then they would stack.