D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[DaveDash]

So, a group that decides, for example, not to have a cleric or an Eldritch Knigh is "stupid" now? Any choices which don't prioritise DPR are "stupid"? Anyone who plays differently from you is "stupid"?

Do you not get how incredibly limited your point of view is? DPR IS NOT KING. There are other, IMO, far more important decisions to make than DPR when designing a class.

Like I said, you're basically a self fulfilling prophesy. Your group prioritises DPR, therefore DPR must be the most important thing in the game. No, it really isn't.

@DaveDash brushes off the idea that the cleric contributes nothing to the first round of combat. But, that HAS to be included in any DPR discussion. After all, if the only reason his Eldritch Knight can consistently do 80-100 points of damage is because the Cleric player is willing to ride the pines for one round, how much damage would a group do with EK and SS and a cleric who is actually casting something offensive in the first round? This conversation gets very, very difficult when you are 100% that you are right and ignore any flaws in your own argument.

Look, you guys might be right. I totally get that. My point is that you are stating as facts things that are maybe not as cut and dried as you might think. The DPR analysis does show that a group without Bless, for example, would have far less of a problem with GWF/SS than you are having. Does that mean that that group is "stupid"?

I don't know how many times I need to keep repeating this, but I will keep repeating it as much as needed.

Bless is -presumably- an easy example for you to grasp of how you can turn -5 into -2.5 - then combined with Archery Style its an effective -0.5 penalty, wiping out the majority of the penalty of the feat.

It's not necessarily a requirement at all. Run with a Wolf Totem Barbarian and suddenly you have advantage in almost every fight. Then there are magic weapons. Then there are potions. There are so many factors in game that reduce the -5 penalty and give you a effective +10 bonus on all your damage attacks.

You haven't even bothered to acknowledge the fact that Bless does not need to be cast round 1 in combat either. A lot of combats running through HoTDQ we have had the initiative and gained surprise - in fact we cast Bless before combat even begins. The Cleric (me in our current games) doesn't need to ride a damn thing.

If you don't scout, don't optimize, don't go past level 8, don't ever get advantage, don't ever cast bless, self regulate when it comes to these feats.. this that and the next thing, you may not have an issue, but the list of 'buts' is growing.

Again, tell me what experience you have playing with an SS + Crossbow Expert in your group? I'd like to know why you're convinced there's no possible scenario in which these feats could ever pose a problem.

 

[Celtavian]

D&D is all about creating exciting and memorable stories... by doing the most damage possible!

As an aside, one of my most fondest memories in my recent campaign is when my Wizard player rolled eight 1's in a row on a 10d4 roll. The disgust in his voice at doing a mere 14 damage with a 4th level spell was music to my ears. I still have the screenshot.

Oh man. I would be so pissed. That had to set the table laughing. That's a memory right there. What a horrible roll.

 

[Celtavian]

Really. You don't think an 11th level paladin with four attacks per round at advantage for 49 points of damage potential without even spending spell slots is piling on the numbers. 122 points of damage if he spends 3rd level spells. The Sharpshooter meanwhile is doing 58.5 points of damage potential, but at -5 to hit and no advantage.

GWM/SS are great feats as written but they're not outliers, son. Piling on the damage happens in many ways and with many class features.

Paladins are kind of scary on the nova damage. It is somewhat mitigated by the limited spell slots. Most paladin characters save their slots and Channel Divinity to bring the Hammer of the Gods down on the big, bad solo enemy. That is truly impressive.

 

[Celtavian]

Nah. GWM in that case is greatly inferior to PM. Bonus attack always + reaction attack >> bonus attack sometimes.

Free advantage against medium foes and extra attacks with Mounted Combatant is also excellent. Extra attacks because you can actually let your warhorse/steed into melee without it getting instantly killed, since it can't be attacked against your will. If you're fighting large foes it can Help instead.

Then add in haste. That is frightening. Paladins. Sheesh. They are one of the reasons I'm not convinced removing the feats is the best option for balancing this out.

 

[Celtavian]

That was the second option I was referring to.

Post 464. I see now. I've done that as well. I'll implement my other rule the other methods I use to mitigate cause problems.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Really. You don't think an 11th level paladin with four attacks per round at advantage for 49 points of damage potential without even spending spell slots is piling on the numbers. 122 points of damage if he spends 3rd level spells. The Sharpshooter meanwhile is doing 58.5 points of damage potential, but at -5 to hit and no advantage.

GWM/SS are great feats as written but they're not outliers, son. Piling on the damage happens in many ways and with many class features.

Paladin damage is resource restricted and requires melee, and they are bound by their oaths. They're balanced enough overall in my view (although I think smite should have required a bonus action, but eh I can live with it, coz it doesnt happen all the time). And of course... paladins can also take GWM. So that already huge burst damage they are capable of will be all the more worse. Another reason not to use the +10.

GWM - and SS especially - is unrestrained, every round unlimited crazy damage.

 

[DaveDash]

Paladin damage is resource restricted and requires melee, and they are bound by their oaths. They're balanced enough overall in my view (although I think smite should have required a bonus action, but eh I can live with it, coz it doesnt happen all the time). And of course... paladins can also take GWM. So that already huge burst damage they are capable of will be all the more worse. Another reason not to use the +10.

GWM - and SS especially - is unrestrained, every round unlimited crazy damage.

Yes the Paladin is an example of big damage done right. The player is given a limited resource he/she can use and they must choose wisely when to use it. The Paladin can do some very nice damage, but they can run out of steam quickly. When I push my group - the Paladin is always first to run out of slots.

 

[Minigiant]

If you remove the -5/+10 part of the feat, all combat feats (except for savage attacker) are pretty much equally good though. There is no longer a "must have". It also means that polearm master and crossbow expert are actually balanced against the other combat styles as well (ex a PM GWM Barbarian does 77 DPR at level 20, while a regular GWM barb with no polearm deald only 46).

The removal of the obviously top tier feat leads to everything working out better. If GWM or SS gave a +1 STR or DEX instead of the -5/+10, then a warrior would have a pretty hard time choosing between GWM or SS, Polearm Master or Crossbow Expert, Lucky, Mobile, Sentinel, Heavy Armor Mastery, and Resilient. In my mind that is a good thing. GWM will still a potent feat (don't underestimate a free attack on a crit or when you drop a foe), but it is no longer the #1 choice. And because of that, it makes other feats relatively more attractive too.

It's not a hard time to choice between, Lucky, Mobile, Sentinel, Heavy Armor Mastery, and Resilient..

If you nerf GWM and SS at a damage focused party.
EVERYONE will pick the next optimal damage feat.
Optimizers will always take the optimal feat.
If you don't want high damage feats in you game, fine.

But there will always be "must have" choices. And fighters will benefit from any form of "cheese" the easiest as they have many attacks.

 

[Celtavian]

It's not a hard time to choice between, Lucky, Mobile, Sentinel, Heavy Armor Mastery, and Resilient..

If you nerf GWM and SS at a damage focused party.
EVERYONE will pick the next optimal damage feat.
Optimizers will always take the optimal feat.
If you don't want high damage feats in you game, fine.

But there will always be "must have" choices. And fighters will benefit from any form of "cheese" the easiest as they have many attacks.

Just because a feat is optimal does not make it imbalanced. Ideally, you want a bunch of optimal feats encouraging hard choices by players to get different, but equally effective, advantages.

 

[Celtavian]

An interesting comparison would be to run a fight between a character with the feats and a character without the feats to see who would win all other things in equal. Both in standard gear for their level. One obtaining ability boosts, the other replacing an ability boost with the feat. See who wins and by what margin.