D&D 5E Stealth

[jgsugden]

Don't agree with you on this one. "Ask your DM" isn't a rule but a cop out, IMO. The rules can't possibly cover every situation. But all the discussions about stealth show that the RAW aren't very clear on the subject.

In this edition rules for skill checks are almost non existent.

If you have a better system, feel free to write it up and post it. Please buy flame retardant clothes before doing so (for your own safety).

The current system is a lousy system from an abstract position. However it also happens to be the best system I've seen.

 

[Psikerlord#]

When I see these discussions I wonder why so many people are so desperate to hide in combat. We hardly ever see that in our games. Hiding in combat is hard and always has been, and when I say hiding I mean creating a situation where the enemies cannot see you, hear you or otherwise sense where you are. If you don't want to be targeted why not walk behind a wall - no need to try and hide. If you are an elf in the woods move behind some bushes and hide if you like - or maybe behind your stationary ally as a Halfling. Unless you also move after hiding most monsters will know where you are and if they want to target you will move to do so. It only really helps against ranged attackers.

We use stealth and hiding all the time out of combat

Agree, in our games hiding is mostly for pre-combat ambush and scouting. Very rarely does anyone attempt to hide mid-combat.

 

[Hriston]

WRONG. The DM does not "permit" stealth attempts. The DM determines if your attempt at stealth succeeds based on how conducive the conditions are to hiding. This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. The Rules empower the player with the knowledge of what they can do. not the knowledge of what they'll have to ask permission to do. You can ask permission to do ANYTHING. But if the DM is going to deny the Rules and tell you that you cannot do a thing when the rules would otherwise say you could that is the absolute destruction of player agency and completely contrary to the point of a rules-based game.

The DM calls for a die roll when the outcome of a declared action is uncertain. The players are not empowered to make checks without the DM's consent. To be clear, the DM decides when you can take the Hide action.

Let's say my character is in an unobscured room, facing a number of adversaries who have noticed her, and standing next to a large crate. I can describe my character moving into position behind the crate so my adversaries lose line of sight to her, and trying to be as quiet as possible so that they can't detect her presence. Do I deserve to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, contested by the Passive Perception scores of my adversaries, the result of which will determine if my Hide attempt was successful? Should the DM call for such a check?

I don't think so. Such an attempt is obviously doomed to failure, so no check is required. My adversaries will undoubtedly know that my character is behind the crate.

This is the point of the rule that says you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly. It's in the rules. The DM isn't breaking any kind of social contract with her players by determining that in this situation there is no chance to hide.

You can't hide behind an object while being seen clearly moving into position behind that object. Likewise, a lightfoot halfilng cannot hide behind another creature, if she is seen clearly moving into position behind that creature.

That's the use of a perception check not of passive perception. Actively searching for something is when the Goblins attempt to locate Bob in the direction they last saw him heading. Passive perception is when they are engaged in other activities and cannot take the time to specifically search for a given thing.

What do you use passive scores for if not for making checks?

 

[Psikerlord#]

You can't win. When it comes to stealth, you can't have a system that is simple, realistic, clear and complete.

* Simple systems are going to be brief - and brevity is the enemy of complete, clear and simple rule sets. They'll leave too many questions uncovered to be clear.
* Realism in all situations can only be achieved through a large volume of rules. That is going to be complex, hard to delve through.
* Clear rules are rules that are easily managed, remembered and utilized. If a situation is complex and subject to a lot of conditions, it can't be clear.
* Complete rules need to cover any given situation that might arise. There are so many situations in D&D where stealth might be desirable that covering it all explicitly would require volumes of complex rules with countless exceptions.

To me, this edition gets it right: It gives us a very basic mechanic and tells the player to ask the DM if they can try stealth in a given situation. It makes it a judgment call and tells you who the judge is. Players might not love the judgment, but at least the rules are clear on how it is to be made. That is the best solution - even if it is unsatisfying.

I agree that Ask the DM is the best solution to stealth, and that's what they've gone with. Works perfectly well as long as you're willing to let the DM make the call (or negotiate with the DM, etc). But someone has to make the final call, and the DM is the obvious person to do it. After you play with the DM for a bit, you will soon understand what types of stealth rulings he makes, so there will see consistency and be able to plan ahead somewhat.

If you want to play a hidey rogue in a constantly rotating DM AL game on the other hand, you're at the whim of the next DM you sit with. In that situation, bring two PCs, and if you don't like the DM's approach to stealth - play your other PC.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Don't agree with you on this one. "Ask your DM" isn't a rule but a cop out, IMO. The rules can't possibly cover every situation. But all the discussions about stealth show that the RAW aren't very clear on the subject.

In this edition rules for skill checks are almost non existent.

I like that the rules are open ended for skills. As a player you say what you want to try. The DM might tell you to make an ability check. A skill might or might not help. The DM might tell you the DC, or keep it secret. Then you roll and find out what happens.

 

[Sunseeker]

How old are you? I'm curious. Reason I'm curious is because I'm 47 years of age and that's how we have done it for 30+ years. Well before 3.5, 4ed and 5ed were even dreamed of. Works perfectly well. You make it sound like what we do is something weird and unheard of.

I'd rather not state, since this seems like it is inevitably going to lead down the road of "I'm older than you and clearly my way of playing is more correct." Let me rephrase the question: would my age make a difference in how you view my opinion?
If the answer is yes, then I'm Justified for not stating my age. If the answer is no, then it doesn't need to be stated.

I think you mean 'players' as characters can't roll dice. Anyway, I secretly roll for their characters when circumstances dictate that their characters wouldn't know about 'X' happening in the environment around them.

Because I'm a brilliant DM and they love my sessions of roleplaying. Also, I don't decide the outcome for them. The dice determines the outcome for them.

I really dislike this dissociative fallacy of the "dice deciding" the dice don't decide anything. They don't up and roll for themselves. You roll them. You may allow your determination to be found via their outcome, but it is simply a mode of you making a decision. The dice are doing nothing of the sort.

 

[Sunseeker]

The DM calls for a die roll when the outcome of a declared action is uncertain. The players are not empowered to make checks without the DM's consent. To be clear, the DM decides when you can take the Hide action.

I disagree completely and the rules do not state as such. The rules state that a character is allowed to take certain actions in certain situations. The DM may not anticipate you taking a given action in any given situation and that is why the rules empower the players to take actions at a time of their choosing. The DM adjudicates how difficult/successful that action was.

Let's say my character is in an unobscured room, facing a number of adversaries who have noticed her, and standing next to a large crate. I can describe my character moving into position behind the crate so my adversaries lose line of sight to her, and trying to be as quiet as possible so that they can't detect her presence. Do I deserve to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, contested by the Passive Perception scores of my adversaries, the result of which will determine if my Hide attempt was successful? Should the DM call for such a check?

You don't deserve anything. You are empowered by the rules to make the attempt.

I don't think so. Such an attempt is obviously doomed to failure, so no check is required. My adversaries will undoubtedly know that my character is behind the crate.

So? That's good player agency AND good role-play. Your character thinks they can hide behind this box. Your character attempts to do so. Much to their chagrin, they're not as well hidden as they think they are. Why should the DM deny you the attempt? Because you might do horribly? There's a "1" on every die. You might do horribly on everything! By your logic you should be denied everything because the possibility that you might fail exists at all.

This is the point of the rule that says you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly. It's in the rules. The DM isn't breaking any kind of social contract with her players by determining that in this situation there is no chance to hide.

There's no rule that says you can't hide from a creature that can see you.

You can't hide behind an object while being seen clearly moving into position behind that object. Likewise, a lightfoot halfilng cannot hide behind another creature, if she is seen clearly moving into position behind that creature.

What? That's absurd. Hiding behind an object is not the same as others not knowing you went behind the object. What they don't know is that you remain behind the object. They saw you go behind it and now because you made a stealth check, they don't hear the noises that you normally make, thus bringing into doubt whether or not you are even behind the object or not.

What do you use passive scores for if not for making checks?

Um, they're the number the players have to beat. The passive score is "take a 10 plus mod", it's a defensive stat just like AC.

 

[Mistwell]

I really dislike this dissociative fallacy of the "dice deciding" the dice don't decide anything. They don't up and roll for themselves. You roll them. You may allow your determination to be found via their outcome, but it is simply a mode of you making a decision. The dice are doing nothing of the sort.

Your threshold for things you "really dislike" seems really low based on this example. So low I think it would be difficult for you to read the internet without being frustrated most of the time. What he's doing isn't unusual. It's obviously not how you decide things, but you're being pretty particular in your criticism of his preference. He's not telling you that you need to do it the way he does it, so why does it apparently bother you that he does it differently than you (so much that you can't even imagine why people would play in someone's game where the DM rolls both hide and perception checks secretly)?

 

[Sunseeker]

Your threshold for things you "really dislike" seems really low based on this example. So low I think it would be difficult for you to read the internet without being frustrated most of the time. What he's doing isn't unusual. It's obviously not how you decide things, but you're being pretty particular in your criticism of his preference. He's not telling you that you need to do it the way he does it, so why does it apparently bother you that he does it differently than you (so much that you can't even imagine why people would play in someone's game where the DM rolls both hide and perception checks secretly)?

Because it's like saying "my gun shot them" or "my car hit them". They're inanimate objects with no ability to do anything of their own volition. So either they're literally delusional and believe that the dice are alive and making the decisions for him or they're being dishonest. Neither are positive qualities.

I use the dice to assist in the decision making process of DMing a lot. But I don't ever claim that they made the decision. It's always me making the decision to roll them and go with the result they randomly generated.

Yes, it is a very specific complaint that I dislike the style of DMing the purports the DM to have no control and instead claim "it's all the dice" it's not.

 

[Hriston]

I disagree completely and the rules do not state as such. The rules state that a character is allowed to take certain actions in certain situations.

Yes, and the rules for hiding give total control to the DM in deciding if the character is in a situation where hiding is appropriate.

The DM may not anticipate you taking a given action in any given situation and that is why the rules empower the players to take actions at a time of their choosing.

I didn't say the DM decides when you do take the Hide action. I said the DM decides whether it is even a possibility in a given situation.

The DM adjudicates how difficult/successful that action was.

The DM can also adjudicate that the action was successful beyond any uncertainty. Likewise, the DM can decide that the action is a failure, forgoing the need for any die roll. If the player doesn't roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, can she be said to be taking the Hide action?

You don't deserve anything. You are empowered by the rules to make the attempt.

What's the point of drawing a distinction between deserving and being empowered?

So? That's good player agency AND good role-play. Your character thinks they can hide behind this box. Your character attempts to do so. Much to their chagrin, they're not as well hidden as they think they are. Why should the DM deny you the attempt? Because you might do horribly? There's a "1" on every die. You might do horribly on everything! By your logic you should be denied everything because the possibility that you might fail exists at all.

That's not my logic. The character can "attempt" to do anything the player wants, but if failure is a forgone conclusion of the attempt, as determined by the DM, then of what use is the die roll? To put it another way, if you are going to adjudicate the outcome of my character's attempt to hide in an unobscured area with a Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by her opponent's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, then how are you going to resolve the same attempt to hide if it happens in a room that is completely dark? Surely hiding under circumstances in which your adversary can't see you would make it easier to make your location unknown.

There's no rule that says you can't hide from a creature that can see you.

It says you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly. Which is what I said.

What? That's absurd. Hiding behind an object is not the same as others not knowing you went behind the object. What they don't know is that you remain behind the object. They saw you go behind it and now because you made a stealth check, they don't hear the noises that you normally make, thus bringing into doubt whether or not you are even behind the object or not.

This might work for creatures of extremely low intelligence, but if creatures see a lightfoot halfling go behind her friend and not come out the other side, they would probably be right in assuming the halfling is still behind her friend. I wouldn't call that guessing or even deducing. They could rightfully be said to know the halfling is still there. Now it's true that the halfling could have teleported to some other location, but then the halfling isn't hidden behind her friend either. Although, she could hide in the new location if she so chooses, and if circumstance allows.

Um, they're the number the players have to beat.

So you're talking about a contest between the Dexterity (Stealth) check of the person hiding and the Wisdom (Perception) check of the person looking. This is true whether you use a passive score or not.

The passive score is "take a 10 plus mod", it's a defensive stat just like AC.

Do you honestly think I don't know what a passive score is? I asked what you use them for, because as far as I know, the only use for a passive score is as a substitute for a die roll in making an ability check.