D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

Your preferred solution(s)?

  • Rewrite the feat: replace the -5/+10 part with +1 Str/Dex

    Votes: 22 13.6%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+5

    Votes: 8 4.9%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+8

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Rewrite the feat: you can do -5/+10, but once per turn only

    Votes: 33 20.4%
  • The problem isn't that bad; use the feats as-is

    Votes: 78 48.1%
  • Ban the two GWM/SS feats, but allow other feats

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • Play without feats (they're optional after all)

    Votes: 11 6.8%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 24 14.8%

  • Poll closed .
That's not anyone's argument. Max the attribute and then take Power Attack if you're in a group that doesn't play many clerics or provide buffs that eliminate the penalty. I can't worry about groups that don't know how to maximize their capabilities. I have to worry about a group that does know how.

You must play with people that don't optimize much at all to miss out on bless. We try to have it every group. If we were at your table, you would know what I was talking about.

There's a lot of groups out there like that.

I watched one stream where the Cleric player barely cast Bless. And the DM struggled against them in terms of NOT killing them. Almost TPKd them at level 3 vs 2*CR2 creatures.

On the other hand I watched another stream - also LMoP - with a group of gamers /pathfinder min/maxers. They cake walked the entire module after they got past the first dungeon.
 

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I've not been saying they're worthless - but at low levels (≤8) they are not as good as raising the attribute.

Not from my gaming experience and not from the math I posted the other day.


At my table, 6th level human variant fighter took Heavy Armor Master, Sentinel, and GWM. He doesn't always get 3 attacks per round, but he does when he action surges or drops a foe (or crits, but that's rare even with feinting). He tends to use the -5/+10 when he Feints. He has a +1 Greataxe of Giant Slaying (the latter part only coming into play in about 3 fights so far against Ogres), but having a +1 weapon is not unusual at many tables. The nice thing about a +1 Greataxe is that the damage (11.5 with Str and GWS) is about the same as the +0 Greatsword the PC was previously using (11.3 with Str and GWS). The rolled damage barely budged, but the player feels good about the extra +1 to hit.

So in those cases that he does one -5/+10 Feints and gets in 2 other attacks per round, his damage if all of them hits is about 48 points. Typically, 2 will hit and he'll do 23 or 37 points of damage (depending on if the one that misses is the +10 plus sentinel D8 damage one).

The Rogue (18 Dex with a +1 dagger, again same damage as +0 shortsword, but +1 to hit) is about 18 points of damage. However, he is more consistent because if his dagger misses, he'll often use the short sword in his off hand for about 14 damage. At +8 and +7, both attacks missing tends to be rare unless it is a fairly tough foe.

Even without a nova, with 2 attacks (or possibly 3 with a dropped foe or possibly more with Sentinel), the Fighter is still often doing 23 points of damage, more than the Rogue can usually manage. The Fighter is at +7 with two attacks per round, so he tends to do better DPR than the Rogue. Non-nova DPR works out for AC 10 to 18 as 18.42 to 14.02 for the Rogue (less if he misses and refuses to not use his off hand weapon in an encounter), 21.99 to 12.56 for the Fighter (break even is AC 15). However, if the Fighter drops a foe, his DPR increases to 32.18 to 18.38 (note, this is not 3/2 times the 2 attack damage because if he gets a critical, he does not get an attack for dropping a foe). And, if the foe's AC is high, the Fighter novas. So, he almost always out damages foes per encounter over the Rogue by about 10 to 30 points. That's what will happen if you have 2 to 3 times as many attacks per round for 2/3rds the damage per attack and 1.5 times the damage when doing a nova. Sorry, but Math 101. 4/3rds damage most rounds, 2x damage some rounds, 3x damage when doing a nova.

Would he do better if he took +1/+1 instead of Sentinel? Probably. OAs in my game tend to be a bit rare. He tends to get them when the foes try to disengage near the end of combat (and his Sentinel still allows him to OA). But not if he replaced GWM with +1/+1. DPR is greater for GWM than taking +1/+1. Illustrated that point for a variety of ACs earlier in the thread.


The only two PCs that come close to the Fighter in nova damage is the Lore Bard with Fireball or the Moon Druid with Conjure Animals. Sometimes they nova better than the fighter, sometimes they don't. The Rogue can do some nice damage with his magic dagger that the previous DM gave him (allows him to cast Moonbeam 3 times per day), but once the PCs got to level 6, the Moonbeam aspect of that item is losing a lot of its luster. He still uses it, but I've noticed a drop off.


So yeah, our players (correctly) think that the Fighter does the most encounter in and encounter out damage (typically 50% to 75% more than the Rogue does) because they just see him piling on the attacks, more so when he novas. And the party often takes short rests between encounters, so the Fighter is often able to nova. Yes as DM, I do sometimes have scenarios where that is impractical, but that is not always the case. If the players want to take a short rest, usually they can arrange to do so without getting attacked (although some other consequences might happen).

If they are buffing, the only buff they do not typically throw on the Fighter is Aid (or if they do, they do the level 1 5 point Aid instead of the level 2 10 point Aid because with Parry, Second Wind, and HAM, he mitigates a lot of damage and doesn't really seem to need a hit point buff).
 
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KarinsDad said:

This seems to be a pretty common theme here. I know [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] has mentioned only doing a small number of encounters per day. And a fighter gets pretty much everything back on a short rest. So, in a group where that's the style, of course the fighter is going to nova pretty much every encounter. Why wouldn't he? It makes too much sense not to.

Start adding in random encounter rolls every fifteen minutes of game time and watch what happens. Suddenly stopping for a short rest is not a good idea. And most of your problems with the fighter go away.
 

This seems to be a pretty common theme here. I know [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] has mentioned only doing a small number of encounters per day. And a fighter gets pretty much everything back on a short rest. So, in a group where that's the style, of course the fighter is going to nova pretty much every encounter. Why wouldn't he? It makes too much sense not to.

Start adding in random encounter rolls every fifteen minutes of game time and watch what happens. Suddenly stopping for a short rest is not a good idea. And most of your problems with the fighter go away.

Seriously I couldn't think if anything worse than a session filled up with meaningless random encounters, just to try and slow down the party.

I hate being railroaded into fights as a player and I certainly will not do the same as a DM.
You can't always dictate the pace of the adventure without getting too railroady, and now at high levels players can easily find ways around your "restrictions", and you risk cheapening the entire experience by forcing some arbitrary number of encounters on them.
 

My experience is that the GWM fighter of level ≤8 never has a buff bigger than +1 - because no cleric is giving them to GWM fighters. I've seen bless cast exactly twice in the entirety of my gaming 5E - And in both cases, the Rogues (plural) got the bless, not the GWM. Why? Because the Rogues do more damage by going front line. Have the fighter pick the target, bless the rogues, and the sneak attacks make shorter work.

Likewise, for Bardic Inspiration. The Rogues and spellcasters are getting that, so that they hit from range.

And, in general, +1 from weapon.

Hell, it's only been the last 6 weeks anyone's even played a CLERIC at all at a table I've run. Of the 30+ people weekly at my FLGS, 3 play clerics. There's a stack of printed out unplayed pregen clerics. Meanwhile, there's not for other classes.

It's just not a given.

Even with a +4 buff (which is purely to-hit - so just subtract 4 from the AC's), it changes the average damage only slightly. Especially in season 2 adventures. Half the fighters with GWM & GWFS have gotten rid of GWM as not worthwhile, when the bonus to strength has served them better. (Gotta love those rebuilds in tier 1.)

I've not been saying they're worthless - but at low levels (≤8) they are not as good as raising the attribute. At 12th level, they're worth considering, because you've already maxed the attribute. If you can, with a +4 or +5 strength mod, get the to hit down to where a natural 10 is needed to hit, then GWM increases your damage output.... by a few points of average per attack. It's still not significant long run. The -5 is really balanced against the +10.

The interaction of SS & XBM is a bit more potent - but two feats is a HUGE cost, and should be a significant bonus. 2 extra 1sts and 4 extra cantrips, or +4 to an attribute (+2 att bonus).

And the table...
This compares the average damage per attack (not action) based upon a +5 att bonus. The left hand index is the natural roll needed to hit after all mods; the table entry shows unmodified/power attack and which is better.

AC-THBd4d6d8d10d122d61d10+GWFS1d12+GWFS2d6 + GWFS
200.5/1.75 Pwr0.6/1.85 Pwr0.7/1.95 Pwr0.8/2.05 Pwr0.9/2.15 Pwr0.95/2.2 Pwr0.8833/2.1333 Pwr0.9833/2.2333 Pwr1.0833/2.3333 Pwr
190.875/1.75 Pwr1.025/1.85 Pwr1.175/1.95 Pwr1.325/2.05 Pwr1.475/2.15 Pwr1.55/2.2 Pwr1.44995/2.1333 Pwr1.59995/2.2333 Pwr1.74995/2.3333 Pwr
181.25/1.75 Pwr1.45/1.85 Pwr1.65/1.95 Pwr1.85/2.05 Pwr2.05/2.15 Pwr2.15/2.2 Pwr2.0166/2.1333 Pwr2.2166/2.2333 Pwr2.4166/2.3333 Std
171.625/1.75 Pwr1.875/1.85 Std2.125/1.95 Std2.375/2.05 Std2.625/2.15 Std2.75/2.2 Std2.58325/2.1333 Std2.83325/2.2333 Std3.08325/2.3333 Std
162/1.75 Std2.3/1.85 Std2.6/1.95 Std2.9/2.05 Std3.2/2.15 Std3.35/2.2 Std3.1499/2.1333 Std3.4499/2.2333 Std3.7499/2.3333 Std
152.375/1.75 Std2.725/1.85 Std3.075/1.95 Std3.425/2.05 Std3.775/2.15 Std3.95/2.2 Std3.71655/2.1333 Std4.06655/2.2333 Std4.41655/2.3333 Std
142.75/2.625 Std3.15/2.775 Std3.55/2.925 Std3.95/3.075 Std4.35/3.225 Std4.55/3.3 Std4.2832/3.19995 Std4.6832/3.34995 Std5.0832/3.49995 Std
133.125/3.5 Pwr3.575/3.7 Pwr4.025/3.9 Std4.475/4.1 Std4.925/4.3 Std5.15/4.4 Std4.84985/4.2666 Std5.29985/4.4666 Std5.74985/4.6666 Std
123.5/4.375 Pwr4/4.625 Pwr4.5/4.875 Pwr5/5.125 Pwr5.5/5.375 Std5.75/5.5 Std5.4165/5.33325 Std5.9165/5.58325 Std6.4165/5.83325 Std
113.875/5.25 Pwr4.425/5.55 Pwr4.975/5.85 Pwr5.525/6.15 Pwr6.075/6.45 Pwr6.35/6.6 Pwr5.98315/6.3999 Pwr6.53315/6.6999 Pwr7.08315/6.9999 Std
104.25/6.125 Pwr4.85/6.475 Pwr5.45/6.825 Pwr6.05/7.175 Pwr6.65/7.525 Pwr6.95/7.7 Pwr6.5498/7.46655 Pwr7.1498/7.81655 Pwr7.7498/8.16655 Pwr
94.625/7 Pwr5.275/7.4 Pwr5.925/7.8 Pwr6.575/8.2 Pwr7.225/8.6 Pwr7.55/8.8 Pwr7.11645/8.5332 Pwr7.76645/8.9332 Pwr8.41645/9.3332 Pwr
85/7.875 Pwr5.7/8.325 Pwr6.4/8.775 Pwr7.1/9.225 Pwr7.8/9.675 Pwr8.15/9.9 Pwr7.6831/9.59985 Pwr8.3831/10.04985 Pwr9.0831/10.49985 Pwr
75.375/8.75 Pwr6.125/9.25 Pwr6.875/9.75 Pwr7.625/10.25 Pwr8.375/10.75 Pwr8.75/11 Pwr8.24975/10.6665 Pwr8.99975/11.1665 Pwr9.74975/11.6665 Pwr
65.75/9.625 Pwr6.55/10.175 Pwr7.35/10.725 Pwr8.15/11.275 Pwr8.95/11.825 Pwr9.35/12.1 Pwr8.8164/11.73315 Pwr9.6164/12.28315 Pwr10.4164/12.83315 Pwr
56.125/10.5 Pwr6.975/11.1 Pwr7.825/11.7 Pwr8.675/12.3 Pwr9.525/12.9 Pwr9.95/13.2 Pwr9.38305/12.7998 Pwr10.23305/13.3998 Pwr11.08305/13.9998 Pwr
46.5/11.375 Pwr7.4/12.025 Pwr8.3/12.675 Pwr9.2/13.325 Pwr10.1/13.975 Pwr10.55/14.3 Pwr9.9497/13.86645 Pwr10.8497/14.51645 Pwr11.7497/15.16645 Pwr
36.875/12.25 Pwr7.825/12.95 Pwr8.775/13.65 Pwr9.725/14.35 Pwr10.675/15.05 Pwr11.15/15.4 Pwr10.51635/14.9331 Pwr11.46635/15.6331 Pwr12.41635/16.3331 Pwr
27.25/13.125 Pwr8.25/13.875 Pwr9.25/14.625 Pwr10.25/15.375 Pwr11.25/16.125 Pwr11.75/16.5 Pwr11.083/15.99975 Pwr12.083/16.74975 Pwr13.083/17.49975 Pwr

My conclusions remain unchanged. It's not worth taking the power attack feats when you can instead raise the attribute.

Addition for tone: Nobody is questioning your assertion that these feats are fine in isolation.

The problem is that the devs seem to have dropped the ball in regards to playtesting the outliers, the extreme cases.

Since you do not buff the GWM character, I cannot consider your case and your arguments. The entire argument revolves around what GWM can do when optimized: that it can do things out of proportion compared to what the alternatives can do.

Thank you for being open with your focus on the unbuffed scenarios. It explains why you don't see what others see.

Zapp
 
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Seriously I couldn't think if anything worse than a session filled up with meaningless random encounters, just to try and slow down the party.

I hate being railroaded into fights as a player and I certainly will not do the same as a DM.
You can't always dictate the pace of the adventure without getting too railroady, and now at high levels players can easily find ways around your "restrictions", and you risk cheapening the entire experience by forcing some arbitrary number of encounters on them.

Not to mention the number of ways that players can mitigate or negate the chance of random encounters. Anything from Rope Trick to flight, to teleportation.
 

Not to mention the number of ways that players can mitigate or negate the chance of random encounters. Anything from Rope Trick to flight, to teleportation.

Exactly. As your party gets higher level, their ability to dictate the pace of the adventure improves.

My group would laugh at the idea of random encounters at night, wind walk miles away, throw up a Magnificent Mansion, cover it up with a non detection spell, and rest when they feel like it.
At early levels they'd make use of rituals like leomunds tiny hut, water breathing (rest under water), or simply find places to rest where it wouldn't make sense to have random encounters.

There is a timeline to try and force them through things in this module, but they circumvented 30 days of travel down to a matter of hours, so now they can do whatever they please in terms of time. I could change things but since I've already set a certain expectation of timeframes, that would absolutely cheapen the experience.
 

This seems to be a pretty common theme here. I know [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] has mentioned only doing a small number of encounters per day. And a fighter gets pretty much everything back on a short rest. So, in a group where that's the style, of course the fighter is going to nova pretty much every encounter. Why wouldn't he? It makes too much sense not to.

Start adding in random encounter rolls every fifteen minutes of game time and watch what happens. Suddenly stopping for a short rest is not a good idea. And most of your problems with the fighter go away.

The fighter in our group didn't need to nova in random encounters. We wasted anything less than dragons. We fought four nycaloths and eight mezzoloths at level 10 or 11, crushed them. Crushed everything that wasn't a dragon. Only other creature we've had some problems with is giants.
 

Exactly. As your party gets higher level, their ability to dictate the pace of the adventure improves.

My group would laugh at the idea of random encounters at night, wind walk miles away, throw up a Magnificent Mansion, cover it up with a non detection spell, and rest when they feel like it.
At early levels they'd make use of rituals like leomunds tiny hut, water breathing (rest under water), or simply find places to rest where it wouldn't make sense to have random encounters.

There is a timeline to try and force them through things in this module, but they circumvented 30 days of travel down to a matter of hours, so now they can do whatever they please in terms of time. I could change things but since I've already set a certain expectation of timeframes, that would absolutely cheapen the experience.

Your players pound through random encounters without blowing resources?

For us we had some random encounters. Four mummies came out of some coffins. One fireball and some normal hits, they were dead. We fought some weird plant creatures, completely annihilated them without blowing resources other than cantrips and regular weapon hits. We only use resources if we think the fight will be tough. We will feel out a fight before we start expending any resources. Maybe a single 1st level bless.

I find it strange that others have found bless so hard to obtain. My buddy found the Magic Initiate feat. He takes that feat to get bless with nearly every caster character. It doesn't use a stat. So it doesn't matter what class you are. Just get bless with Magic Initiate, you can cast it as a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, or whatever. Surprised that easy trick isn't used by more groups.
 

There's a lot of groups out there like that.

I watched one stream where the Cleric player barely cast Bless. And the DM struggled against them in terms of NOT killing them. Almost TPKd them at level 3 vs 2*CR2 creatures.

On the other hand I watched another stream - also LMoP - with a group of gamers /pathfinder min/maxers. They cake walked the entire module after they got past the first dungeon.

You come from Pathfinder don't you? My group does as well.

If a group was coming from 4E, they wouldn't know how to optimize as well with buff stacking I would think. I don't recall classes having the ability cast buffs on others in 4E. I recall everything being at will, encounter, daily, with some utility powers. The buffs weren't nearly as good as 3E/Pathfinder. The 3E/Pathfinder system required intelligent buffing in campaigns with even moderately skilled DMs. Coordinated buffing was a big part of Pathfinder.

Then again I know Karinsdad played a lot of 4E. His group seems to know how to use coordinated buffing like Pathfinder groups.

Min-maxing was expected in Pathfinder. I didn't know many people in 3E/Pathfinder that didn't min-max.
 

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