D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[DaveDash]

Your players pound through random encounters without blowing resources?

For us we had some random encounters. Four mummies came out of some coffins. One fireball and some normal hits, they were dead. We fought some weird plant creatures, completely annihilated them without blowing resources other than cantrips and regular weapon hits. We only use resources if we think the fight will be tough. We will feel out a fight before we start expending any resources. Maybe a single 1st level bless.

I find it strange that others have found bless so hard to obtain. My buddy found the Magic Initiate feat. He takes that feat to get bless with nearly every caster character. It doesn't use a stat. So it doesn't matter what class you are. Just get bless with Magic Initiate, you can cast it as a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, or whatever. Surprised that easy trick isn't used by more groups.

My players aren't so much worried about random encounters as they are ambushes. I ambushed them a lot in the beginning - using legitimate NPC scrying resources.

The way we play is generally consume the minimum resources possible - if a cantrip will kill it use a cantrip. Spells like Hold Person also become super efficient at higher levels. Fireball is great for clearing out tons of trash.
My group generally plays to the tempo of the Paladin though, as he's first to run out of slots, so they usually rest when he needs to rest. The Wizard on the other hand at level 17 basically never runs out of resources now.

We're all experienced D&D/RPG players, we know when to use Bless and when not to use Bless. We use it when it's most optimal, not only factoring in damage but also saving throws as well.

 

[DaveDash]

You come from Pathfinder don't you? My group does as well.

If a group was coming from 4E, they wouldn't know how to optimize as well with buff stacking I would think. I don't recall classes having the ability cast buffs on others in 4E. I recall everything being at will, encounter, daily, with some utility powers. The buffs weren't nearly as good as 3E/Pathfinder. The 3E/Pathfinder system required intelligent buffing in campaigns with even moderately skilled DMs. Coordinated buffing was a big part of Pathfinder.

Then again I know Karinsdad played a lot of 4E. His group seems to know how to use coordinated buffing like Pathfinder groups.

Min-maxing was expected in Pathfinder. I didn't know many people in 3E/Pathfinder that didn't min-max.

I came from a bit of everything mostly, but my most heaviest played D&D before 5e was 3.5. I did some 4e stuff and you had more individual optimisation going on in later versions of the game, because the maths basically required it. The 4e group I played with was pretty hopeless tactically though, it was like herding cats, so I didn't get to explore a lot of 4e group optimization theory.

From 3.5e to 5e though I played a lot more computer games than D&D (now it's the opposite) including a lot of MMO's, the 2000's were the golden years of MMO gaming. Group optimization is basically necessary once you get to the end game of most MMO's and virtually conditioned into you.

We probably started Min/Maxing in AD&D - the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale CRPGs taught us to min max (they're pretty hard games, I've been replaying them recently!). I've never been a true power gamer though, as in scour all the books in 3e for broken combinations and come up with wildly OP concepts, but min/maxing has always been my thing.

 

[DaveDash]

The fighter in our group didn't need to nova in random encounters. We wasted anything less than dragons. We fought four nycaloths and eight mezzoloths at level 10 or 11, crushed them. Crushed everything that wasn't a dragon. Only other creature we've had some problems with is giants.

I almost had a TPK with a Mind Flayer Arcanist plus a couple of Deurgar and low level Drow. It was the Mind Flayer that was the real threat. It was the first Mind Flayer in 5e my group had come across and 3/4 of them had dumped int.
The next one they came across (CR16 Sorcerer Mind Flayer) they were much more careful with.

Another stock creature that has been particularly nasty has been the Death Tyrant. I wasn't expecting a lot out of it, but I basically got into a situation where it came down to the wire with my group.
In a dungeon environment it can see and shoot farther than most characters, and it's main eye cone which prevents them from healing is actually *really* nasty. It also can't be tripped out of the air or any shenanigans like that.
Against your group since you weren't running with magic items, disintegrating your GWM Fighter main weapon would be interesting.

 

[KarinsDad]

I almost had a TPK with a Mind Flayer Arcanist plus a couple of Deurgar and low level Drow. It was the Mind Flayer that was the real threat. It was the first Mind Flayer in 5e my group had come across and 3/4 of them had dumped int.

You just gave me such a great idea for Sunday's game. My 6th level PCs too haven't encountered a Mind Flayer yet and the MM has a CR 7 and CR 8 version of them. One would fit perfectly in the mines that they are currently in.

Thanks!

 

[Hussar]

Seriously I couldn't think if anything worse than a session filled up with meaningless random encounters, just to try and slow down the party.

I hate being railroaded into fights as a player and I certainly will not do the same as a DM.
You can't always dictate the pace of the adventure without getting too railroady, and now at high levels players can easily find ways around your "restrictions", and you risk cheapening the entire experience by forcing some arbitrary number of encounters on them.

Fair enough. And totally a play style thing. Agreed.

But, since you refuse the fix, then you have to deal with power issues. Which is the lesser of two evils? For me, random encounters have nothing whatsoever to do with rail roading. It's about verisimilitude and making the setting feel like a living, breathing thing. Stuff moves around and sometimes you bump into stuff unexpectedly. As a DM, I love it because it means I don't know what a given session is going to bring. I like the random elements. But, that's just me.

As the saying goes, play what you want. But, just realize, that the problems you are having are something of a product of your own play style. You and others have constantly said that any group that goes in for optimizing and whatnot will find the same results. That's flat out not true. You are having these issues because you play 5e in a very 3e style - 15 minute adventuring days where you have one or two big encounters per adventuring day. And, unsurprisingly, you run into the same issues that you would in 3e - certain classes get significantly more powerful when you can nova nearly every encounter.

So, your choices are to either snip off the bit that lets the players nova (drop the feats) or lengthen your adventuring day. Whichever answer you pick will work.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hussar (and Celtavian): this thread isn't about "the problems with Fighter". This thread isn't about taking many or few short rests.

This thread is about the -5/+10 feats.

It has clearly shown me that without feats, the game works well.

But when you add feats, some bad things happen to the game:
1) the Rogue's Sneak Attack isn't impressive anymore
2) heck, even spellcaster top level damage isn't "rare and amazing" - it's just rare.
3) choosing to fight sword-and-board or with two weapons lose steam completely

All of this is caused by adding two feats to the game, and not those feats in their entirety, but the -5/+10 mechanism specifically.

There have been several detractors, but none of you have addressed the core issue. (All the talk about your opponent's math errors does not mean your own position is right; all the talk about adventure composition and rest frequency is simply irrelevant to the question, the argument that rules fiddling is bad or wearysome still does not save a mistaken feat design; etc etc). Your arguments may be sound and right, but unless they specifically show that these feats work even for a group with experienced minmaxers, they're... irrelevant.

Whenever an argument is made and several attempts to shoot it down are simply missing the mark makes for a pretty convincing argument there in fact is truth to that argument.

This is so in this case.

One more thing: I have yet too see somebody argue these feats ACTUALLY ADD VALUE to the game. Lots of chaff defending feats in general and trying to dissuade any house ruling discussion.

But not a single poster have actually said these feats are good for the game. (The most I've heard is feats in general is good, or that there's nothing wrong with these feats)

If you want one final shot at convincing me these feats are good as-is, you shall have it. But remember, what I want to see is an experienced DM telling me that their minmaxing group tried to abuse these feats and failed.

THIS is what playtesting is, or should be. Testing the extreme cases.

I am close to concluding WotC did what rpg companies have done many many MANY times over: dropping the ball on some serious playtesting. Relying too much on white-room analysis.

Just like this thread: the DPR analysis looks fine. Yet, the feats are probably way too powerful in practical play in the hands of players who aren't shy of abusing them.

It is much easier to believe too few playtesters stress-tested these feats for WotC to hear their conclusions, than for it to be true that the people who red-flag these feats are simply playing the game badwrongfun.

 

[Celtavian]

A min/maxing group will not fail to take advantage of the feats.

If we're talking min/maxing, I could show you a few other min/max options that are pretty nuts. They're high level. I doubt many players will see them.

Wizard: By 13th level the wizard could simulacrum another martial gaining full access to a martial's capabilities along with his own. This damage would count as part of his DPR. The drawback is cost to create the simulacrum and time. There is nothing to indicate this simulacrum doesn't heal on a long or short rest or with healing spells. So you can keep a simulacrum going quite long.

Casters that can use animate objects can animate up to 8 small objects capable of 8 attacks in melee range for 1d4+4 per attack and +8 to hit. This can allow an additional 50 to 80 damage using a Bonus Action on top of the caster firing off his regular spells. You could make a war bard using a bow with two attack and Sharpshooter using animate objects on his arrows to do some insane close up damage. He would likely be able to do this for most major fights.

Druids can summon a lot of creatures to attack a lot of times doing quite a bit of damage. You can eliminate the problem with an AoE spell.

The only option non-magic using martials have is Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master for boosting their damage. CapnZapp, wouldn't you like to know what min/maxing casters can do before you eliminate the feats that allow min/maxing martials to do some crazy damage? Maybe give it some more time. I'm starting to test some caster combinations and finding you can do some very nasty stuff as a caster that exceeds in effect what you can do with those feats.

 

[DaveDash]

I don't think its RAI that a simulacrum heals naturally OR with healing spells, since the spell description is quite explicit in how it's heals.

You can't animate arrows because the items can't be worn or carried. Well sure you could throw them on the ground, but if you weren't prepared that would probably waste an action.

Also both Simulacrum and Animate Objects can be dispelled and counterspelled (more likely the later). You can't counterspell a sharpshooters attacks.

 

[Celtavian]

I don't think its RAI that a simulacrum heals naturally OR with healing spells, since the spell description is quite explicit in how it's heals.

RAI maybe, but it does not state this is so anywhere in the text. They should have added that a simulacrum is a construct to prevent healing spells. That would not prevent a long rest from working.

You can't animate arrows because the items can't be worn or carried. Well sure you could throw them on the ground, but if you weren't prepared that would probably waste an action.

I set up bundles to drop on the ground as part of my move action. Very easy.

Also both Simulacrum and Animate Objects can be dispelled and counterspelled (more likely the later). You can't counterspell a sharpshooters attacks.

True. Casters aren't as common in this edition. I imagine they are easy to add to limit casters even further than Concentration and Legendary Resistance have done.

 

[Psikerlord#]

A min/maxing group will not fail to take advantage of the feats.

If we're talking min/maxing, I could show you a few other min/max options that are pretty nuts. They're high level. I doubt many players will see them.

Wizard: By 13th level the wizard could simulacrum another martial gaining full access to a martial's capabilities along with his own. This damage would count as part of his DPR. The drawback is cost to create the simulacrum and time. There is nothing to indicate this simulacrum doesn't heal on a long or short rest or with healing spells. So you can keep a simulacrum going quite long.

Casters that can use animate objects can animate up to 8 small objects capable of 8 attacks in melee range for 1d4+4 per attack and +8 to hit. This can allow an additional 50 to 80 damage using a Bonus Action on top of the caster firing off his regular spells. You could make a war bard using a bow with two attack and Sharpshooter using animate objects on his arrows to do some insane close up damage. He would likely be able to do this for most major fights.

Druids can summon a lot of creatures to attack a lot of times doing quite a bit of damage. You can eliminate the problem with an AoE spell.

The only option non-magic using martials have is Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master for boosting their damage. CapnZapp, wouldn't you like to know what min/maxing casters can do before you eliminate the feats that allow min/maxing martials to do some crazy damage? Maybe give it some more time. I'm starting to test some caster combinations and finding you can do some very nasty stuff as a caster that exceeds in effect what you can do with those feats.

All the caster stuff is resource limited and subject to counterspell, dispelling and concentration breaking. The -5/+10 is all day every day without reprieve and that's part of why it's broken.

Having said that, I have changed the druid summoning spells to delete the part about "obeying orders". So the summoned creatures are friendly, but might not do exactly what the caster wants them to do. That goes a long way to balancing out a bunch of pixies etc.