D&D 5E Rage of Demons more details.

[Prism]

That would be a complete and major change of thei "CR policy" to date. It would make Tiamat now look very lame indeed (not that I though capping actualy deities at CR25 didn't make her look lame to begin with, but now being eclipsed by mere demon princes is adding insult to injury for a lesser deity).

The combat ability of a deity should not be a reflection of their influence. If a demon prince is physically more dangerous than a deity then I don't see a problem with that - especially that demon prince. Also, we only saw stats for Tiamat on a prime where she does not have huge influence. Maybe she has different abilities in her own realm in hell or on a world like Krynn. A deities power should be a combination of their own prowess and an element of power derived from their worshippers. In AD&D many of the gods where less challenging in combat than demon princes and arch devils - I remember because we fought a bunch of them for their stuff

 

[Corpsetaker]

I'm not sure if 5th edition does this but most gods and goddesses do not enter the Prime as a whole, they usually send an avatar.

 

[Mirtek]

. In AD&D many of the gods where less challenging in combat than demon princes and arch devils - I remember because we fought a bunch of them for their stuff

In AD&D 1e archfiends were lesser deities and in AD&D 2e deities were statless.

 

[Prism]

I'm not sure if 5th edition does this but most gods and goddesses do not enter the Prime as a whole, they usually send an avatar.

I imagine that generally that is the case still. However I think in Rise of Tiamat that actually was the real entity trying to come to the prime to rule and cause devastation. She wouldn't have needed the whole hoard and ritual thing for an avatar. In the case of the demon princes if we use the original source, they didn't use avatars but if summoned and defeated off their own plane were banished back to it for 100 years or so.

 

[Prism]

In AD&D 1e archfiends were lesser deities and in AD&D 2e deities were statless.

Being a deity didn't mean anything back then though. They were just a bunch of stats in the monster manual, and therefore monsters to fight. The deities in Deities and Demigods where wildly differing in power, both combat and influence. Only 3rd edition really gave deity a special meaning as far as their stats were concerned, with their ability to always roll 20 and such like. This vastly elevated a deity beyond that of a demon prince in combat terms but not in influence especially

So in pure combat terms, in 5e, we have Tiamat at CR30 (not 25) and Demogorgon (the toughest demon) at 25+. I expect the other princes to be in the 22 to 25 region. It all seems about right to me. Put them much higher and there is no point in having stats for them at all. Tiamat is almost unbeatable at that CR anyway.

It looks like Wizards have gone for the more 1e style of gods, demon princes and arch devils, where with the right story they are creatures to be fought.

 

[Corpsetaker]

It looks like Wizards have gone for the more 1e style of gods, demon princes and arch devils, where with the right story they are creatures to be fought.

And this is something I am highly against.

 

[Mirtek]

Being a deity didn't mean anything back then though.

Actually it did in 1e after the MotP. It had bunch of deity specific rules that should be added on top of any deity's stats. Basically the ancestor of the 3.x approach.

And in 2e being a deity made you statless, thus 2e deities were at the most power they ever had in D&D

at CR30 (not 25)

D'oh! Shame on me. I take back everything. I was firmly convinced it was CR 25 for Tiamat (maybe because i had CR 19 princes of EE fresh in mind).

You're all right. With CR 30 Tiamat i buy a CR 28 demogorgon.

 

[epithet]

I think a "power" on its home plane would have "I win" as a lair action. The only way to beat a deity in its house would be to prepare ahead of time with some kind of epic ritual, the use of one or more specific artifacts, or with the assistance of other deities.

As noted above, the stats given for Tiamat and the archdemons will be for their manifestations on the material plane.

 

[graves3141]

In AD&D 1e archfiends were lesser deities and in AD&D 2e deities were statless.

2E deities had stats or at least their avatars did, just look in the Faiths & Avatars book. It lists their ability scores, hit points, magic resistance, etc... great book too, btw.

 

[Mirtek]

2E deities had stats

Nope.

or at least their avatars did

Which was something completely different. Fighting an avatar is like smashin the screen through which I am giving you a video call while I am sitting on the other site of the atlantic and are simultaneously having 3 other video calls.

F&A, page 17: "When powers have vital business upon the Prime Material Plane, they mustsend avatars to act for them. An avatar is simply a manifestation of a deityupon the Prime Material Plane. This manifestation is not nearly as powerful as a power and is merely a projection of a deity’s power to the Prime Material Plane. An almost infinitely vast gulf of power lies between the god and the avatar. The avatar embodies just a small portion of the god’s power."

, just look in the Faiths & Avatars book.

F&A, page 15: "No statistics for the powers and abilities of true deities are listed anywherein this book. The power of deities is impossible to quantify. Statistics quite simply become meaningless when dealing with the powers of the Realms."