D&D 5E Assassinate

[Quajek]

If he can't perform any actions or move, then he hasn't taken a turn.

If his initiative came up in the order and he CHOSE to do nothing, then he took his turn. But if he is HELD or otherwise INCAPACITATED and prevented from doing anything (especially from doing anything to defend himself) then he has not taken his turn, he has had his turn taken FROM him and I would rule that the Assassin has Advantage.

Think logically for a second. Why would it be harder for an Assassin to hit someone who is completely incapable of moving or defending himself in any way than it would be for him to hit someone who is walking down a hallway, oblivious?

If the target had already taken a turn in the combat (meaning, got to actually take some kind of action), then one can assume he is in a fighting stance, has his weapon out, maybe a shield up, that sort of thing. But until he DOES something in combat, he's in the same position (or a worse one) than he was during the surprise round.

 

[Hriston]

Ok here is a question.

a surprise round hits, everyone rolls initative, but the dragon can't act.
intiative order is Fighter, Dragon, Assasin, Cleric....

rd 1 FIghter goes, Dragon can't act, Assasin goes, Cleric cast hold monster and dragon misses save.
rd 2 FIghter goes, Dragon can't act, Assasin goes, CLeric goes....

now the rule is:

3 level: you're at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack roll against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

so, the dragon hasn't taken a turn yet, he has been surprised, and now held. in what round if any can the assassin call a hit a crit?


my answer, 1st one only

My answer is any round in which the Assassin rolls a natural 20 on his attack roll.

To score a critical using Assassinate, you must hit a creature that is surprised, not one that has been surprised. Even in round one, on the Assassin's first turn the Dragon is no longer surprised. The effects of Surprise only last until the end of the surprised creature's first turn, so only the Fighter is able to attack the Dragon while it is still surprised.

Also, I disagree that the Dragon hasn't taken a turn yet. All participants take a turn every round. Surprise prohibits you from taking actions or movement on your turn, but your turn is still taken.

 

[Hriston]

Personally, I find it genuinely odd that people seem so concerned about the Rogue potentially getting a free crit once per battle that they're halving his chances for it by taking it away from him every time he rolls lower than his Surprised target during Initiative. Is the Assassin's damage really causing that much of a hardship for everybody that they feel like it needs to get nerfed?

No one is concerned, and it isn't a nerf since this was the intent of the ability from the beginning as has been confirmed in a tweet from Mike Mearls. Read the rules with an open mind and see if this reading makes sense to you.

 

[DEFCON 1]

No one is concerned, and it isn't a nerf since this was the intent of the ability from the beginning as has been confirmed in a tweet from Mike Mearls. Read the rules with an open mind and see if this reading makes sense to you.

It makes written sense if you parse the language a certain way, I don't disagree. But... I also accept that NONE of the books have been written to have water-tight rules verbiage and instead are meant to be taken with a bout of DM common sense. And as far as *I'm* concerned... having a Surprised enemy become unsurprised *prior* to the surprise attack actually happening against him (just because they rolled a higher Initiative for a combat that hasn't actually started yet) to me makes absolutely no common sense. Can someone parse the language in the rules so it makes written sense? Sure. But should they? Eh... not so sure. That possible ignoring of common sense-- that combat starts just because the rogue is *thinking* about attacking and thus the DM is having everyone roll initiative (and possibly eliminating the rogue's chance to assassinate the target)-- nerfs the Assassin's ability unnecessarily in my opinion. An ability that at least as far as I'm concerned... is not so powerful that we need to curb the number of times a rogue can use it.

Now if the combination of generalized and non-watertight written rules information for initiative, surprise, and the Assassinate ability, plus your own personal DM's common sense tells you the Rogue Assassin should only get to use Assassinate when they roll higher on initiative than their Surprised target... then more power to you. I won't argue on that. Your common sense says that's fine, then I got no beef. Best of luck to you!

But if you read this entire situation and have that niggling feeling that "you know, does it really make sense that someone who doesn't know an attack is coming suddenly DOES know an attack is coming just because a rules mechanic says initiative for combat can be rolled prior to the combat actually STARTING with that surprise attack..." then the DM should take the opportunity to dig in to the 5E mantra of "Rulings, not rules" and say screw it-- the rogue can use Assassinate whenever they have Surprise on their target because that's just logical. Combat doesn't start until the first attacker makes the initial combat's attack (which in this case is the Rogue Assassin). Regardless of what people's initiatives are.

 

[Celtavian]

No one is concerned, and it isn't a nerf since this was the intent of the ability from the beginning as has been confirmed in a tweet from Mike Mearls. Read the rules with an open mind and see if this reading makes sense to you.

It is nerf compared to how I was running it. I was running surprise similar to Pathfinder/3E, which was a better written surprise rule.

It further weakens the Assassin archetype. I've already played one and shown how much weaker it is than the Arcane Trickster. That is running surprise the way I was doing it. This just further proves that Arcane Trickster is the only way to go. If Mearls and Crawford want to make Arcane Trickster the primary rogue path, so be it. Assassinate is weak compared to Arcane Trickster abilities. The other assassin abilities can be accomplished with a disguise self spell and/or friends or charm person. Assassinate was the only ability carrying the class, they just weakened it with their ruling making the Assassin class essentially a the weakest of the rogue classes. If that was their intent, good on them.

I don't much care if rules were clear to begin with. I don't like a weak Assassin class. It's lame that the Assassin gets one ability that an initiative check can defeat whereas other classes do not have such weaknesses. The Warlock has hex, a no save disadvantage on ability check of choice ability that affects everything and synergizes with Eldritch blast to provide a sneak attack die per attack. It doesn't require a magic weapon and does force damage which few creatures are immune to. It's weak sauce that the Assassin is this pointless archetype that might as well be ignored for reasons other than flavor. Too many classes are thus designed in 5E.

At least in 3E/Pathfinder martial classes were equally absurdly powerful in the areas they excelled at like single target damage.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To score a critical using Assassinate, you must hit a creature that is surprised, not one that has been surprised. Even in round one, on the Assassin's first turn the Dragon is no longer surprised. The effects of Surprise only last until the end of the surprised creature's first turn, so only the Fighter is able to attack the Dragon while it is still surprised.

Also, I disagree that the Dragon hasn't taken a turn yet. All participants take a turn every round. Surprise prohibits you from taking actions or movement on your turn, but your turn is still taken.

I disagree if you can do nothing on your turn you can not take a turn, there for until the 2nd round he is surprised....

 

[Hriston]

I disagree if you can do nothing on your turn you can not take a turn, there for until the 2nd round he is surprised....

If the Dragon is still surprised then why is he able to take reactions following the end of his first turn?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It makes written sense if you parse the language a certain way, I don't disagree. But... I also accept that NONE of the books have been written to have water-tight rules verbiage and instead are meant to be taken with a bout of DM common sense. And as far as *I'm* concerned... having a Surprised enemy become unsurprised *prior* to the surprise attack actually happening against him (just because they rolled a higher Initiative for a combat that hasn't actually started yet) to me makes absolutely no common sense.

I CAN make it make sense either way, but I am more concerned with fun at the table...

scenario: Invisible Bard/Assassin standing next to a much lower level wizard. This is a trick, the wizard is bait to draw out a drow assassin that the bard/assassin wants to kill. The drow is hiding and waiting, then jumps out to assassinate the wizard. OK, so we roll initative.

PC Bard/assassin rolls a 7 (since he has +3 he goes on a 10) NPC wizard rolls a 10 but has a -1 so goes on a 9... Drow NPC rolls a 17 with +6 goes on a 23...

so round 1 (surprise round)
Drow
Bard/Assasin
Wizard
round 2 (round 1 of non surprise)
Drow
Bard/Assasin
Wizard
round 3
Drow
Bard/Assasin
Wizard

SO how do you rule this... what I did was I said the Drow surprised the wizard (assassinate) the bard surprised the drow (assassinate.) and round one both got auto crits...

You COULD argue the wizard knew he was bait and as such not surprised, or that the drow already acted and as such wasn't surprised, or you could do anything inbetween.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If the Dragon is still surprised then why is he able to take reactions following the end of his first turn?

why can't I react when I am surprised... if you surprise me with a jump scare, and I REACT by screaming like a little girl (Don't judge me) that doesn't mean I am no longer surprised... it could take several seconds after I scream before I can make a conherint thought...

 

[Celtavian]

If the Dragon is still surprised then why is he able to take reactions following the end of his first turn?

Where does it say because you can take reactions you are no longer surprised? Find that sentence.