D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

[Blue]

For some D&D players, it is basically all about the DPR.

Others have other things they like.

It's a big game, folks play it in a lot of different ways.

Heh, and char op isn't even about DPR. It is often about being able to measure, and DPR is a handy number, but it's far from the only thing. Recently created a wizard for a new group, we're 2nd no. With the exception of a single cantrip I have nothing that does damage. I don't do DPR. Yet I found the 5e Wizard char op useful. Commentary on spells including things you may not think of immediately. Pointing out feats both obvious and more usefully not. Talk about how the class can mechanically fit with other classes to design what you want. Warning about trap options that won't let you hold up what you are supposed to do.

Other posts like "I really want to play a spear-wielding ranger in 5e, how can I make it work?" Take something the rules aren't the best at supporting and turning out a decent character.

You go get theoretical discussions - I want to grapple really well, how can I manage it? Funny, but rogue and bard can be good at it because of expertise. Hey, I can play a strength based thug who grapples? What a different rogue idea from the standard dex-based one. It's not that they expect anyone to try to play Pun-Pun in an actually D&D game. (Well, maybe back in the 3.x days of CoDzilla, but that was because cleric and druid had so many things that easily worked together.)

Anyway, welcome everyone who plays any style of RPG to ENWorld.

 

[The Human Target]

D&D is a game that penalizes bad play and weak characters with permanent death, so it always seems odd to me to complain about character optimization.

 

[Umbran]

D&D is a game that penalizes bad play and weak characters with permanent death, so it always seems odd to me to complain about character optimization.

Well, aside from various negative social interactions...

Folks complain about it because it is a far distance from bad/weak to optimized. Modern editions of the game (to me at least) seem quite survivable with pretty stock, non-optimized stuff. You have to kind of work at it to really shoot yourself in the foot these days. But, having someone who optimizes, among people who don't, can increase risk for the group, rather than decrease it - the GM has to stat things up to challenge the optimizer, and that puts middle-of-the-roaders at risk. Thus, successful play only requires optimization if others are optimizing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Folks complain about it because it is a far distance from bad/weak to optimized. Modern editions of the game (to me at least) seem quite survivable with pretty stock, non-optimized stuff. You have to kind of work at it to really shoot yourself in the foot these days. But, having someone who optimizes, among people who don't, can increase risk for the group, rather than decrease it - the GM has to stat things up to challenge the optimizer, and that puts middle-of-the-roaders at risk. Thus, successful play only requires optimization if others are optimizing.

That is a bad DM. He should be optimizing for the enjoyment of the group, not to punish the optimizer. It's quite possible to build a character so strong that he yawns his way through encounters, but if the DM communicates that "the world is what it is and I'm not going to change the monsters to challenge you, because that will kill everyone else," then the optimizer has a new challenge: "how low can I take my stats/level and still win these encounters?"

For example, I've had quite a lot of fun with low-stats Sharpshooter fighters.

 

[The Human Target]

Well, aside from various negative social interactions...

Folks complain about it because it is a far distance from bad/weak to optimized. Modern editions of the game (to me at least) seem quite survivable with pretty stock, non-optimized stuff. You have to kind of work at it to really shoot yourself in the foot these days. But, having someone who optimizes, among people who don't, can increase risk for the group, rather than decrease it - the GM has to stat things up to challenge the optimizer, and that puts middle-of-the-roaders at risk. Thus, successful play only requires optimization if others are optimizing.

Oh absolutely, but its a behavior that the game does nothing but reward. Some players have always tried to finangle things to the nth degree to make victory more assured.

I wonder if ENWorld existed in the 70s people would complain about the "play opimizers" who go excruciatingly slowly though the dungeon foot by foot, with a pack mule's worth of adventuring supplies strapped to their back and an idea on how to circumvent every encounter in the place?

Isn't that kind of why Gygax made the Tomb of Horrors?

 

[the Jester]

Oh noes, badwrongfun!

Seriously, just because you don't like it doesn't make it an invalid playstyle. It's just a matter of personal preference. I'm pretty far from an optimizer myself, but I appreciate optimization that isn't at the expense of characters actually having, you know, character.

I've got a guy who is very keenly aware of optimization in one of my groups. But he is committed to building his character according to his vision of his character, not the best available choice. So he's a 5th level wizard whose best direct damage spell is ray of sickness.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Heh, and char op isn't even about DPR. It is often about being able to measure, and DPR is a handy number, but it's far from the only thing. Recently created a wizard for a new group, we're 2nd no. With the exception of a single cantrip I have nothing that does damage. I don't do DPR.

A Wizard after my own heart!

Well, aside from various negative social interactions...

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

having someone who optimizes, among people who don't, can increase risk for the group, rather than decrease it - the GM has to stat things up to challenge the optimizer, and that puts middle-of-the-roaders at risk. Thus, successful play only requires optimization if others are optimizing.

I wonder if you are talking about power gaming rather than optimization. Power gaming is the play-style of competing against your own party. As far as I'm concerned, it's completely incompatible with optimization.

My specialty is Wizards, and if you were to read my guide, you find it entirely about enhancing the party and giving them tactical advantages (rather than shining yourself), as that is what I've found Wizards to be quite good at for several additions now. The optimization of my Wizard makes everyone able to meet greater challenges, and protects them if they are in danger. My Wizard kill very few enemies (if any at all), and provide very few "auto-win" scenarios, instead, the rest of the party are the ones who win the battle, I just help them succeed through optimized support. They are not in greater danger, they are in less, or I have not optimized well.

 

[Wik]

You know, I'm not a charop person. And I don't really like to see it in my games; the two players I have that do this sort of thing have stopped in 5e, partly out of deference to my own wishes, and partly because they saw their behaviour was not making the game more enjoyable for everyone else.

That said, there's a place for Charop. It can help look at the rules in weird ways, and for some people, it's a lot of FUN. It's like a giant puzzle that you can manipulate, minecraft style, to fit whatever goal you've set. But I have grief with players that take some strange build in CharOp and then try it in a regular game. "I'm a guy with a dart that I use in melee combat! By using a trip combo, and feat X from this book, I can do a bunch of damage and my targets can't move because they have to keep getting to their feet, and...."

Blech.

 

[rballison]

I don't mind a Char Op forum (we already have one, anyway,) I just hope people get used to posting in the right forum for their subject as things settle down. I am not a huge min/maxer for whom DPR is god, but I'll definitely take a look at those forums when I am making to a new character, because I often find insights that make me look at a certain spell or feature in a new light.

I really like having a Char Op forum. When I was younger, I had much more time to pour over the rules and evaluate options to find the best powers to match my character's backstory and still make an effective character. In a previous edition I was able to make "Merlin (the Fighter)". He was insane and believed that he was a wizard. I was able to optimize him so that he was very effective but still fit the story. His "sleep spell", for example, had the material component of a pinch of sand and his quarterstaff and his magic missile spell had the material components of his longbow and some arrows painted with glitter. It made a great story, but still an effective character because I had the time to examine the rules and parse out a way to tailor a fighter that could be effective with something other than plate mail and a longsword. As I have gotten older and have more real life responsibilities, I don't have the same amount of time I used to have to examine the intricacies of the rules. I appreciate the Char Op forums to help me find the best powers and builds to use in my chosen character story even when I don't have the time to do all of the research myself.

In most campaigns, it is a disservice to yourself and your team if you build an ineffective character just for the sake of a story. The Char Ops forums can help you take your story and find ways to make it effective.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think the charops people are keen-minded and their work is approachable and valuable.

If you want to understand the nuts and bolts of your class, or find a synergy, if your interest in the game includes tinkering, charops is there for you.

I love my corvette. I love driving it - and that's my favorite experience with it. But I still read all about performance enhancements, which transmissions people are pairing with which engines. Etc. Because from time to time, I'm also a tinkerer in my car.

DND is enjoyable on so many levels, I wouldn't ever want to simply shut the door on any one area.

CharOps, ILU.

Yeah, this. I don't think I'd actually want to play with the Char Ops people, but I find their work insightful, especially when they explain their reasoning. I learn all kinds of tactics and spell uses, even if I don't spec to take advantage of them.