Does Medium Armor Need a Buff?

How many DM's even take donning and doffing armor into account when characters are resting? No, you cannot have restful sleep in full armor in my games.

I don't do it as often as I'd like, partly because resting tends to happen offscreen between sessions. It did come up last session, since the PCs attacked a group of 40 hobgoblins in their underground barracks while those hobgoblins were sleeping--when we ended, the PCs had dropped several boulders which collapsed portions of the barracks, but the still-living hobgoblins were most of the way towards having their armor on, and they'll be venturing out aboveground as soon as they can tunnel through the collapsed earth that used to be their stairwell.
 

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While save or die things might be satisfactory to a person trying to present the game as a simulation, it does not function at all in a narrative sense and is fundamentally bad for game play.

It knocks both a player and a protagonist out of a story due to an event that was almost certainly not meant to actually be an important or meaningful moment. Just a random trap coupled with a single poor roll.

And for that single poor roll?
An actual real life human being is out of the game for the rest of the night and either goes home or finds something else to do away from everyone else as they are no longer part of the group activity.

The whole point of save-or-die effects is that you're supposed to avoid making them. Only an idiot purposefully looks a Medusa in the face, no matter if he's got an 85% chance of not turning to stone. Save-or-die effects are Gary Gygax's way of telling you to stop and use your noggin instead of pulling out your d20s and rolling initiative and attack rolls.
 

5E D&D, the current edition of D&D; is there a 5E tag I'm supposed to be using?

I'm flagging 8th level because that's when characters can get their 2nd ability increase. It's the level that typical Dex focused characters can increase their Dex to 20. Thus, I'm using that as a baseline for comparisons.

So MG.0, what does Medium Armor afford a character that Heavy isn't? Lets take saves out of the issue. A Fighter with Dex 14 has +1 AC when wearing Heavy Armor (Plate) compared to when wearing Medium Armor (half-plate); some gold?. What do they get out of it? A Ranger with Dex 20 has the same AC in Medium Armor (half-plate) as Studded leather, except they now have a stealth penalty; what do they get?

Well, comfort, for one thing. A certain fantasy series comes to mind wherein the protagonist (a knight) and his fellow knights spent a lot of time wearing chain mail instead of their formal plate armor, because it was good enough for casual usage (riding around in potentially-hostile towns, light combat, etc.) and it prevented their formal armor from getting mucky/rusty/etc., which kept their squires happy. But full armor would be pulled out for formal events and for actual military encounters.

Frankly, the way 5E is designed, adventurers could do the same thing and get away with it.

Half-plate is also better for stealth purposes, it's quicker to don and doff, it's somewhat lighter, and it avoids giving people as strong of an impression that you're here to kill them. (Of course, no armor is even better at the latter job.)
 

If you're putting this on the hypothetical character, then both characters wouldn't walk up to the volcano edge ... I'm not seeing the value of your hyperbole.







I suppose I am.



But it is as good as light and heavy armor at levels 1 through 7; why's that have to change? And things should be balanced where they can be so that they remain options. (Nice video game jab ...) And we already have stats for inferior armor (leather, hide, ring); why does a whole category of armor have to be inferior?



Unless those have multiple chances to avoid it, I'd never have them in my game. So we have a different style. I won't resort to personal attacks.

Could you give me an argument as to why Medium Armor should be even with Light and Heavy up until a certain point, and from then on be a -1 AC penalty for no reward? At least medium armor had lower armor check penalties in 3E; I'd even accept that to a degree (I already accept that having a stealth penalty gives you +1 AC).

Edit: Besides, save or dies can just as likely be Con or Will; and in the case of cliffs, they could even be strength. Sounds like equivalencies to me.

If you are using the optional encumbrance variant, medium armor has its advantage.
Also characters that are balanced between str and dex, not dumping one of them make good use of medium armor.
The only thing I would change is making medium armor master a half feat, which allows you to upgrade your armor without losing a full stat bonus. If you favour stealth, medium armor master is a +2 bonus to AC and the natural upgrade of light armor.
But lets look at ot in a different light: medium armor is very good for non min/maxers. A solid choice of armor for viable more rounded characters.
 

Planned event? I don't railroad characters. They make choices and sometimes those choices lead them to bad ends. You are certainly making a lot of ungrounded assumptions about how I run my games. My players enjoy themselves. Yes, it sucks when a character dies, but it usually isn't the absoulte end and it can result in some fantastic unplanned stories. I often find the unintended consequences are the memorable ones. The carefully crafted DM plotlines and NPC's often fall victim to the greater enjoyment to be had from serendipitous chaos.

If you have a hallway with a hidden pit trap or "bottomless" pit or pit of lava, which were your own examples, and the adventurers MUST walk down that hallway in order to complete their mission-- that is a planned event. Like it or not, the moment you put that there you have planned to have the party do a save or die.

Sure, you could come up with some rationalization like "well, you should do a search check every single time you take a 5' step and poke everything tile you might step on with a 10' pole before taking a step or it is totally your fault because YOU put yourself in that situation!!" If you spend more time rolling search checks than you do anything else, you really have drained all enjoyment out of the game.

And let's say they do start doing that to pleasure you. "HA!! Spikes come out from the ceiling down on you! Save or die!! You said you were checking the floor. Its your own damn fault for putting yourself in this situation where you weren't checking the ceiling."

When the check the "walls" you make them specify left or right and if they choose the right wall, lava spurts out from the left one! Save or die!!

No, you put that damn pit there intending to make everyone roll a Dex save or die, you have planned to have one party member die. Just because they can't mind read you and know the action you predetermined was the right one to "avoid" the situation chose one of the other dozen possible actions is not "putting themselves in the situation". You are the one who put them there.

Same deal if they need to fight a golem or other large creature that cannot by pushed but can easily push them on a narrow bridge above such an "autodeath" area and the only way around this scenario is to give up on the mission that you NPC assigned them, go home and retire from adventuring. Saying "well, if they go ahead with this it is their own damn fault" doesn't fly-- YOU are the one who chose to set up the scenario in precisely such a way that you mathematically more or less guaranteed that at least one party member was going into that lava. You solely made the choice that the room would be shaped in that way and have that particular hazard combined with that particular enemy.

That is a planned event. You might not call it "railroading" simply because you gave them the option to quit and go home and let the town turn into zombies or let the dragon cult win, but it really is no better.

Or worse, I am willing to bet you are the kind of person who if the players do a search check on a door and roll high, there is never a trap. But the one time they don't roll a search check or roll low, that's the time you are going to claim there is a save or die poison dart trap and if you get tired of them checking every door, then in the next one there is a small bug inside that will leap into their eyeball and burrow its way into their brain killing them if they fail their save.

Those are planned events and claiming that players are putting themselves in those situations and saying it is their fault is just bad rationalizing for your own actions.
 
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I ran a table in Excel to look at the breakdown, from a strict AC perspective. The ranking below is derived from that table, and is only based on final AC. It does not include Stealth considerations, Str requirement, cost, availability, etc. I only went down as far as 4th place, considering that to be far enough.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: left"][TR][TD]Rank[/TD][TD]Armor[/TD][TD]AC[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]1[/TD][TD]Plate[/TD][TD]18[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]2[/TD][TD]Splint[/TD][TD]17[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]2[/TD][TD]Half Plate for Dex 14 or greater[/TD][TD]17[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]2[/TD][TD]Studded Leather for Dex 20[/TD][TD]17[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3[/TD][TD]Chain Mail[/TD][TD]16[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3[/TD][TD]Half Plate for Dex 12-13[/TD][TD]16[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3[/TD][TD]Breast Plate or Scale Mail for Dex 14-20[/TD][TD]16[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3[/TD][TD]Studded Leather for Dex 18-19[/TD][TD]16[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3[/TD][TD]Padded or Leather for Dex 20[/TD][TD]16[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4[/TD][TD]Chain Shirt for Dex 14+[/TD][TD]15[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4[/TD][TD]Half Plate for Dex 10-11[/TD][TD]15[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4[/TD][TD]Breast Plate or Scale Mail for Dex 12-13[/TD][TD]15[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4[/TD][TD]Studded Leather for Dex 15-16[/TD][TD]15[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4[/TD][TD]Padded or Leather for Dex 17-18[/TD][TD]15[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]
 
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Heavier armor is just plain better than medium armor, and it should be IMHO. I don't find this problematic at all, personally, but this is a matter of taste.

I haven't read the whole thread, but what is the purpose of buffing medium armor up, exactly? Or, put another way, if medium armor is as good as heavy armor, why have heavy armor at all? I think there is a reason that the armored tank and the barely-armored dodgy guy are both archetypes, but the guy in moderate armor isn't much of an archetype at all.

Just my 2 cp. If you find it problematic, by all means, carry on; but I really don't think all pcs are intended to have the same AC.
 

If you have a hallway with a hidden pit trap or "bottomless" pit or pit of lava, which were your own examples, and the adventurers MUST walk down that hallway in order to complete their mission-- that is a planned event. Like it or not, the moment you put that there you have planned to have the party do a save or die.

Sure, you could come up with some rationalization like "well, you should do a search check every single time you take a 5' step and poke everything tile you might step on with a 10' pole before taking a step or it is totally your fault because YOU put yourself in that situation!!" If you spend more time rolling search checks than you do anything else, you really have drained all enjoyment out of the game.

And let's say they do start doing that to pleasure you. "HA!! Spikes come out from the ceiling down on you! Save or die!! You said you were checking the floor. Its your own damn fault for putting yourself in this situation where you weren't checking the ceiling."

When the check the "walls" you make them specify left or right and if they choose the right wall, lava spurts out from the left one! Save or die!!

No, you put that damn pit there intending to make everyone roll a Dex save or die, you have planned to have one party member die. Just because they can't mind read you and know the action you predetermined was the right one to "avoid" the situation chose one of the other dozen possible actions is not "putting themselves in the situation". You are the one who put them there.

Same deal if they need to fight a golem or other large creature that cannot by pushed but can easily push them on a narrow bridge above such an "autodeath" area and the only way around this scenario is to give up on the mission that you NPC assigned them, go home and retire from adventuring. Saying "well, if they go ahead with this it is their own damn fault" doesn't fly-- YOU are the one who chose to set up the scenario in precisely such a way that you mathematically more or less guaranteed that at least one party member was going into that lava. You solely made the choice that the room would be shaped in that way and have that particular hazard combined with that particular enemy.

That is a planned event. You might not call it "railroading" simply because you gave them the option to quit and go home and let the town turn into zombies or let the dragon cult win, but it really is no better.

Or worse, I am willing to bet you are the kind of person who if the players do a search check on a door and roll high, there is never a trap. But the one time they don't roll a search check or roll low, that's the time you are going to claim there is a save or die poison dart trap and if you get tired of them checking every door, then in the next one there is a small bug inside that will leap into their eyeball and burrow its way into their brain killing them if they fail their save.

Those are planned events and claiming that players are putting themselves in those situations and saying it is their fault is just bad rationalizing for your own actions.

Very informative. What's this got to do with medium armor? I get that you're a great non railroady DM and the other guy is awful and puts people in bad places on purpose but.... Don't care.

So... Yeah medium armor is cool.
 

I think 3.5 had it much closer to being right. Armor check penalties from 0-10 affecting all kinds of skills like swim, climb, tumble, balance, etc...you know, the skills that it MADE SENSE would be hindered by hvy armor....5e simplifies everything, and in the process, made med.armor close to useless (from an optimization standpoint). In the 5e world of bounded accuracy, the +10 ac of plate/shield is just OP in comparison.

So in our 5e game we have house ruled that armor giving DIS to stealth also gives it to most all acrobatics, sleight, and athletics checks, as well as DEX saves and checks. So swim in hvy armor=suck. climb in hvy armor=suck. jump in hvy armor=suck. pick pocket in hvy armor (lol)=suck. initiative in hvy armor=suck (gee yes, you would be a bit slower afoot, plus helm reducing vision/periphereral, etc). It just makes sense.

we also house ruled that plate armor is only ac+7 unless you have hvy armor master, then +8. also no magic shields to stack their bonuses w/magic armor.

it still leaves half the specific armor types less optimized than the others, but then as a DM i dont have magic items found be always optimized, so ring mail and splint mail are dropped as often as plate.
 
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