D&D 5E A WOTC 5e Warlord That Would Be Acceptable To Skeptics

[I'm A Banana]

If the fighter took lucky, and got 3 extra hits per day...

3 * 1d8+5 = 28.5 damage.
Which makes the fighter 0.5 damage behind.


If he took savage attacker
1.31 * 12 = 15.72
... that feat is still bad.

Totally. The right feat could nuke that difference out of the water. Without feats, the fighter's still got that extra ASI that he can't put into STR, but could put into DEX or CON or even a mental ability score so as to shore up a low save. Doesn't really contribute to damage, though.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Cool, we're in agreement about that. @Hussar doesn't seem to agree, based on his complaints about his fighter getting overshadowed by variously sorcerers, rangers, rogue/battlemasters, and paladins.



I think that the point of comparison is the 3rd level fluff ability within the Fighter subclass. So, proficiency in artisan's tools for a Battlemaster, or the Weapon Bond for an EK, and doodly-blank-nothin' for the Champion. The utility of these abilities is much more campaign-dependent than the combat abilities - a paladin might never encounter a fiend, while our Battlemaster brews healing potions in their downtime. Or the opposite might occur. In both cases, it's kind of up to the ability owner to make the most of their ability.



I can say that as a DM, if a Fighter wanted to make another skill check because Action Surge, I'd be happy to let 'em. It's a significant resource they're spending on that skill check. But again, out-of-combat stuff is much more variable by campaign than combat-based stuff, which is why it's kind of hard to evaluate and compare across noncombat abilities. You can say that Weapon Bond is useless, but then Eddie gets a magical axe he can leave as a calling card embedded in his last victim and can call it back to his hand as a bonus action from anywhere on the same plane and suddenly it's a bigger campaign element than detecting a skeleton ever was. These things are VERY context-dependent. Though I certainly wouldn't object to fighters getting some better (or at least more evocative) level 3 fluff options in general.

But my point is, they have them, and so they're meeting that threshold of rough balance for me. Battlemasters brew potions; EK's summon their swords. Champions don't do squat, but that's kind of the Champion's schtick, so as much as I'd like to see them with a ribbon, I don't find fault with WotC for not giving one to 'em out of the gate.

Woah woah woah what?

Alchemy kit proficiency means you can brew potions? Where is that said in the book? As I understood it, all it did was fluffy stuff. Let you identify what a potion is (though only one DM--running Labyrinth Lord--has ever chosen not to identify a potion for the group), or maybe like, salvage the poison from something you find in the world. Certainly I haven't seen anything that suggests you can make useful potions! That seems...well, frankly like a broken house-rule, considering that your alternatives are things like calligrapher's supplies, potter's tools, etc.

Edit:
Also, uh, Weapon Bond is....I can't see any way to spin it that's not combat-related. You bond a weapon (or two) to yourself; the only things that does for you is let you summon it to your hand...which lets you fight with it...and prevent you from being disarmed...which means you keep fighting with it. Unless I'm being just massively derptastic, I don't see how this is any more non-combat related than the Paladin bonus to saving throws.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Woah woah woah what?

Alchemy kit proficiency means you can brew potions? Where is that said in the book? As I understood it, all it did was fluffy stuff. Let you identify what a potion is (though only one DM--running Labyrinth Lord--has ever chosen not to identify a potion for the group), or maybe like, salvage the poison from something you find in the world. Certainly I haven't seen anything that suggests you can make useful potions! That seems...well, frankly like a broken house-rule, considering that your alternatives are things like calligrapher's supplies, potter's tools, etc.

Not Alchemist's Supplies, but check out Herbalism Kit - you can make antitoxins and potions of healing with it. Admittedly, the core rules make that slow as frig (probably not accidentally thanks to AL, an FR Tenday), and if you're not in a campaign that spends significant downtime anywhere you might as well be getting proficiency in underwater basket-weaving for all the good ANY artisan's tools will do you. But that's part of that high campaign variability.

Edit:
Also, uh, Weapon Bond is....I can't see any way to spin it that's not combat-related. You bond a weapon (or two) to yourself; the only things that does for you is let you summon it to your hand...which lets you fight with it...and prevent you from being disarmed...which means you keep fighting with it. Unless I'm being just massively derptastic, I don't see how this is any more non-combat related than the Paladin bonus to saving throws.

It's primarily a fluff ability, since "presume you have weapons" seems to be one of the assumptions about combat (along with the resting rules). Weapons aren't hard to come by. It was the swordmage ability in 4e, but I've seen it used for passing messages between split party members - EK leaves the weapon somewhere, Party Scout finds it, leaves the note inside. At some time later, EK summons the weapon, now knowledge is shared! I've also seen it used with bartering tricks - "That's a nice magic weapon!" the ogre says, and you say, "It pains me to give it up, but if you give us safe passage you can have it." and the Ogre's like "AWESOME," and then later that day the EK is like "Yoink." and the Ogre just thinks she's lost a valuable bit of treasure.

Again, utility can vary wildly, but that's true about every class's fluff ability.

 

[mellored]

Also, uh, Weapon Bond is....I can't see any way to spin it that's not combat-related

You sell your weapon.
Then summon it once you leave town.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

You sell your weapon.
Then summon it once you leave town.

...to which any self-respecting DM would reply:

DM: You try...and nothing happens.
Player: WTF?! It's my bonded weapon! I can do that as my special ability! What do you mean, 'No'? How?
DM: It's not bonded to you anymore. You sold it to someone else. You broke the bond doing that. That's why.
Player: ...*fume*...



^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[mellored]

Hiya!



...to which any self-respecting DM would reply:

DM: You try...and nothing happens.
Player: WTF?! It's my bonded weapon! I can do that as my special ability! What do you mean, 'No'? How?
DM: It's not bonded to you anymore. You sold it to someone else. You broke the bond doing that. That's why.
Player: ...*fume*...



^_^

Paul L. Ming

Player: Come back baby, you know i didn't mean it. I just said that so i could get money to buy you new polish. You know I could never leave you behind.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hiya!



...to which any self-respecting DM would reply:

DM: You try...and nothing happens.
Player: WTF?! It's my bonded weapon! I can do that as my special ability! What do you mean, 'No'? How?
DM: It's not bonded to you anymore. You sold it to someone else. You broke the bond doing that. That's why.
Player: ...*fume*...



^_^

Paul L. Ming

I mean, I may not be very self-respecting, but I'd allow it - gp's easy to come by in 5e.

But this just points to the wide campaign variability of fluff abilities. Some DM's don't let them be as fun as they otherwise might be.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Not Alchemist's Supplies, but check out Herbalism Kit - you can make antitoxins and potions of healing with it. Admittedly, the core rules make that slow as frig (probably not accidentally thanks to AL, an FR Tenday), and if you're not in a campaign that spends significant downtime anywhere you might as well be getting proficiency in underwater basket-weaving for all the good ANY artisan's tools will do you. But that's part of that high campaign variability.

Well uh...

The Herbalism Kit isn't listed among the Artisan's Tools in the PHB. The PHB lists Artisan's Tools as:
Alchemist's supplies
Brewer's supplies
Calligrapher's supplies
Carpenter's tools
Cartographer's tools
Cook's utensils
Cobbler's tools
Glassblower's tools
Jeweler's tools
Leatherworker's tools
Mason's tools
Painter's supplies
Potter's tools
Smith's tools
Tinker's tools
Weaver's tools
Woodcarver's tools

Herbalism Kit doesn't show up until later in the Tools section, after things like the Disguise Kit and the different types of Gaming Sets. So...I'm pretty sure Student of War isn't able to give you that proficiency, as it specifically gives you proficiency with a type of artisan's tools.

I...legitimately feel kind of bad, now, for having rooted this out. Even if it was slow and cumbersome, it was still a non-combat boon

It's primarily a fluff ability, since "presume you have weapons" seems to be one of the assumptions about combat (along with the resting rules). Weapons aren't hard to come by. It was the swordmage ability in 4e, but I've seen it used for passing messages between split party members - EK leaves the weapon somewhere, Party Scout finds it, leaves the note inside. At some time later, EK summons the weapon, now knowledge is shared! I've also seen it used with bartering tricks - "That's a nice magic weapon!" the ogre says, and you say, "It pains me to give it up, but if you give us safe passage you can have it." and the Ogre's like "AWESOME," and then later that day the EK is like "Yoink." and the Ogre just thinks she's lost a valuable bit of treasure.

Again, utility can vary wildly, but that's true about every class's fluff ability.

Ehhhh, I fundamentally disagree on that last point. Classes with spells have hard, clear, bright-line rules they can exploit--and which, in general, the DM is expected to bend to.

Also, and I am shocked to say this, I am 100% with Pming on this one--a very unusual situation! You sell the weapon, you break the bond. Either it's an automatic thing, the exchange of gold being one of the ritual ways of ending the bond, or it's something that every shopkeeper worth their salt would know how to dispel--or, perhaps that's why a market for sold "magic weapons" is nonexistent, the market is too easily exploited. But I guarantee you I'd never just let the player get away with that sort of thing. Talk about exploitative!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I...legitimately feel kind of bad, now, for having rooted this out. Even if it was slow and cumbersome, it was still a non-combat boon

We need a 'condolences' button. Not really, but neither exp nor a laugh seemed appropriate.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well uh...

The Herbalism Kit isn't listed among the Artisan's Tools in the PHB. The PHB lists Artisan's Tools as:
Alchemist's supplies
Brewer's supplies
Calligrapher's supplies
Carpenter's tools
Cartographer's tools
Cook's utensils
Cobbler's tools
Glassblower's tools
Jeweler's tools
Leatherworker's tools
Mason's tools
Painter's supplies
Potter's tools
Smith's tools
Tinker's tools
Weaver's tools
Woodcarver's tools

Herbalism Kit doesn't show up until later in the Tools section, after things like the Disguise Kit and the different types of Gaming Sets. So...I'm pretty sure Student of War isn't able to give you that proficiency, as it specifically gives you proficiency with a type of artisan's tools.

I...legitimately feel kind of bad, now, for having rooted this out. Even if it was slow and cumbersome, it was still a non-combat boon

Good point! Though I don't think this diminishes their non-combat abilities (it's a little odd to say that creating potions of healing is a non-combat boon anyway), and the point remains about the wildly varying possible campaign applications for this - using Alchemists' supplies might get you some Alchemist's Fire, if the DM is on board and you have time, sure. As a smith you can make weapons and armor, sure. It's still a fluffy ability with wildly varying practical applications.

Ehhhh, I fundamentally disagree on that last point. Classes with spells have hard, clear, bright-line rules they can exploit--and which, in general, the DM is expected to bend to.

Spellcasting isn't generally offered as a noncombat ribbons. The points of comparison are things like the Paladin's Divine Sense or the Totem Barbarian's two rituals, or a dragon sorcerer's ability to read and write Draconic, or the Wild Surge table, all of which have the same kind of design space: not universally useful, but nice to have when they're put to use. Sword-calling and weapon-smithing are shades of that.

Actual spellcasting is more comparable to things with combat potential, since every Comprehend Languages you use is a Magic Missile you don't. You can sort of find some common ground with cantrips (there's no clear line for what a man-shaped glowing figure does for Dancing Lights, or what a monster's reaction to a particular Minor Illusion would be), but even then we're talking more about comparable weapon and armor proficiency.

Also, and I am shocked to say this, I am 100% with Pming on this one--a very unusual situation! You sell the weapon, you break the bond. Either it's an automatic thing, the exchange of gold being one of the ritual ways of ending the bond, or it's something that every shopkeeper worth their salt would know how to dispel--or, perhaps that's why a market for sold "magic weapons" is nonexistent, the market is too easily exploited. But I guarantee you I'd never just let the player get away with that sort of thing. Talk about exploitative!

Ah, to each their own! For me, the RP situation when you might have to go back to that town is hilarious and compelling enough for me to not have ANY problem with it. But again, features like these are wildly dependent on individual DM's as to how useful they are. That's part of what they're there for.