D&D 5E A WOTC 5e Warlord That Would Be Acceptable To Skeptics

[MoonSong]

You sell your weapon.
Then summon it once you leave town.

Gokudo! That show was so random!

 

[Hussar]

Alright, well, as I've said--that isn't an argument I was making. I'm pretty sure I've been on record, repeatedly, as saying that I think the Fighter is, more or less, on-par with the other "heavy melee" classes (Paladin and Barbarian) as far as damage is concerned. I have only and exclusively been arguing--again, as I believe I have said--that I don't see a substantial damage advantage for the Fighter, at least for the first half-or-so of the game.

And I know I have stated, at least elsewhere, that the bigger problem is that people talk about a significant damage advantage for the Fighter, and use this alleged significant advantage as justification for the Fighter getting effectively nothing (well, other than a relatively narrow ribbon) to contribute in terms of non-combat, from its class mechanics. It gets the same amount everyone does from Background, sure--but literally every other class, even the Barbarian (well, Totem Barbarian, anyway) picks up substantial ability to contribute to both of the other pillars beyond class skills and background benefits. As far as I can tell, the Champion and Battlemaster straight-up don't, and the standard Eldritch Knight (limited to Abjuration and Evocation) doesn't get a whole lot either.

(Also, my statement about "an extra round's worth of effect" was meant to cover precisely what you said with the "additional dash action" or the like. I am highly unconvinced of the non-combat applications of Action Surge, at least partially because no DM I've had has ever required round-like adjudication of non-combat situations...except in 4e skill challenges, which every "old school" type seems to make signs-against-evil when they hear.)

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say for several pages and failing. THIS is what I've been arguing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say for several pages and failing. THIS is what I've been arguing.

So we agree then? Fighters are balanced in terms of damage output?

Do we also agree that fighters (aside from Champions, and, weirdly, the homebrew class you're using) get an of out-of-combat fob at level 3?

 

[Tony Vargas]

How did this become a "Fighter SUX" thread? I had enough of those in 3.x, I don't need to go through that again.

The fighter is what it is: a high-DPR class. That's just what it does. It's moderately durable, can help you move heavy objects, and that's about it. He can help you make dead bodies, and help you move dead bodies. He's a good friend, and a deadly enemy.

For anything else, see your Fighter's Background for possible useful stuff. DPR is their thing, without it, they're no thing. Add too much to the fighter on top of that DPR and you break it, what's more anything you add to the fighter that /doesn't/ add to his DPR probably doesn't see much use. Adding a slotted serving spoon to a chainsaw doesn't much increase it's usefulness. The designers realized that: an EK can use his spells to improve his combat potential, and the EK's CS dice add directly to his DPR.

Complaining the fighter doesn't have non-combat contributions to make or doesn't have choices (and I'll admit to having done so) is futile. The class has filled the design space allocated to it, and no more is available.

At bottom, it's a solid rendition of the 2e Fighter that even gets to use more than just bows and paired weapons. It's not the 3.x or 4e Fighter, but it doesn't suck.

 

[Hussar]

So we agree then? Fighters are balanced in terms of damage output?

Do we also agree that fighters (aside from Champions, and, weirdly, the homebrew class you're using) get an of out-of-combat fob at level 3?

Well, if by balanced you mean that a battle master fighter can just about keep up with a paladin, I suppose that's balance of a sorts. Of course it ignores the fifteen other things paladins get, and the fact that fighters, by their nature, are supposed to do MORE damage, but, you can call it balance if you like.

Look, the math isn't that hard. My character does about 10 points of damage per hit. He gets two attacks on a surge. 10 damage is about (close enough anyway) 2d8 worth of Smite damage. The 8th level paladin gets 17d8 in smite damage. IOW, when I surge, I do about 4d8 worth of smite damage. It would take me 4 surges just to EQUAL the paladin's damage output. Next level, the paladin gets 2x3rd level spells, meaning he gets 10d8 MORE smite damage, bringing him to 27d8 smite dice. It would take me 6 surges in a day just to equal his damage. Not exceed, just equal.

And you call that balanced?

Even if I was a battlmaster, I'd still do 4d8 worth of smite damage on a surge, with an extra 5d8 worth of superiority dice damage, so, 9d8 bonus damage per short rest. I have to short rest at least once just to equal the paladin at 8th level, and twice at 9th. The character that's supposed to be the best at melee combat has to blow every single bonus die he can, THREE TIMES, just to equal what the paladin can do in 10 rounds.

Note, this back of the envelope calculation assumes that every surge attack hits.

So, will you at least admit that my fighter is seriously lagging behind the paladin in damage? It takes me 4 surges just to equal his damage output. IOW, most days, I can't even come close to what he can do. Remember, his bonus dice are never wasted, the way a surge attack could be through a miss. As it stands right now, I can't equal the paladin in damage. There is simply no way. Next level, it gets even worse. By 11th level, where I get that 3rd attack, it gets a little closer, but, I'm still going to be playing second fiddle.

No, I would not say that the classes are balanced. I'd say fighters are woefully underpowered, considering all they get are (pretty much) direct combat abilities, and all that does is bring me par with the classes that get combat abilities PLUS non-combat abilities. Sorry, a minor skill bonus at 3rd level isn't really in the same league as a paladin's detection ability, healing abilities, damage immunities, and various other gew gaws.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If the fighter took lucky, and got 3 extra hits per day...

3 * 1d8+5 = 28.5 damage.
Which makes the fighter 0.5 damage behind.

Or he could take Mounted Combatant and have advantage on everything plus superior mobility.

 

[Hussar]

Heck, let's step over to the ranger. With his extra d8 vs anything wounded, he's generally doing an extra d8 damage every round. We're assuming about 30 rounds of combat per adventuring day, so, the ranger is getting about an extra 30d8 damage, over the course of the day. I'd have to surge 8 times to beat the ranger at damage. The Battlemaster would still need to surge 4 times to catch up to the ranger. Given that the ranger and the sword and board fighter are doing pretty much the same weapon damage (d8+stat), the BM is still pretty far behind, and my character isn't even playing in the same league.

I did consider mounted combat, but, the campaign won't really allow for it. We've been without mounts most of the campaign and with the travel means we've used - ship travel, hippogriff and dragon, a mount would be pretty much impossible to use in this campaign. Also, a mount presumes outdoor combat, which is also fairly campaign dependent.

 

[Aldarc]

There is a warlord discussion somewhere amidst this current conversation, right?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I am so lost.

I'm pretty sure I've been on record, repeatedly, as saying that I think the Fighter is, more or less, on-par with the other "heavy melee" classes (Paladin and Barbarian) as far as damage is concerned.

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say for several pages and failing. THIS is what I've been arguing.

So we agree then? Fighters are balanced in terms of damage output?

Well, if by balanced you mean that a battle master fighter can just about keep up with a paladin, I suppose that's balance of a sorts.
...
So, will you at least admit that my fighter is seriously lagging behind the paladin in damage? ... As it stands right now, I can't equal the paladin in damage. There is simply no way.

I get that you're unhappy with your fighter's damage output. Based on the numbers and my spectator's experience, that unhappiness doesn't have much of a basis in reality (if you want to bring misses into the equation, extra attacks fare even better than a smite in most cases - more chances to hit/crit). Maybe it's confirmation bias, maybe it's negativity bias, maybe the dice hate you, maybe I'm a horrible observer who does math like a barnyard animal (I certainly was throughout most of my schooling!), I dunno. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be any chance of convincing you that your experience is perhaps not reflective of your character's actual performance at this point, so I'm kind of forced to concede the entire conversation is moot - it's pointless to argue against your feeling, and you're not giving me much more to talk about.

Sorry, a minor skill bonus at 3rd level isn't really in the same league as a paladin's detection ability, healing abilities, damage immunities, and various other gew gaws.

My proposition is that the ability to make items or summon your sword is roughly in the same league as detecting celestial/fiends/undead - wildly varying in utility depending on the campaign. Healing and damage immunities are primarily combat abilities, so they're largely irrelevant to any conversation about what a given class can do outside of combat. And again, if all we're going to work with is feelings, there's no real purpose in having the convo - feelings might be unfounded, but they can't be changed with logic.

 

[mellored]

I get that you're unhappy with your fighter's damage output. Based on the numbers and my spectator's experience, that unhappiness doesn't have much of a basis in reality (if you want to bring misses into the equation, extra attacks fare even better than a smite in most cases - more chances to hit/crit).

It's also a sub-optimal build. Trying to build damage as a sword & board fighter is counter productive.


*The choice of 1-handed and 2-handed is much bigger for fighters. Smites don't care how big the weapon is, action surge/multi-attack does.
*Fighters are more affected by accuracy (both ways) since smites don't care. Advantage is their BFF (and disadvantage their archenemy).
*Fighter's have more to gain from magic weapons. +1 damage per hit is worth a lot more when you attack more. Again, smites don't care.
*Fighter's have more to gain from buffs. Same reasons as above. Bless, foresight, elemental weapon, crusader's mantle... smite still don't care, but the fighter will multiply any of those. Nothing in the game is as dangerous as a well buffed fighter.