D&D 5E Is stoneskin underpowered?

[Shadai]

In response to my bit about classes being MAD and not being able to get everything out of just one score you said:

Never said there was. Never inferred it. Never thought it. Please provide a quote where I said anything of the sort.

....

But you did. You totally did. Here, let me show you:

And this is where the concentration mechanic goes a bit off the rails. Don't you think that it is a bit odd that you are arguing wizards that use concentration spells (that cover a wide range of iconic spells) should in general have high Constitution scores? How high? So an elf enchanter should have a 14 or 16 Con if he'd like to cast suggestion, hold person and dominate?

Here I'll bold the part so you don't skip it:

And this is where the concentration mechanic goes a bit off the rails. Don't you think that it is a bit odd that you are arguing wizards that use concentration spells (that cover a wide range of iconic spells) should in general have high Constitution scores? How high? So an elf enchanter should have a 14 or 16 Con if he'd like to cast suggestion, hold person and dominate?

So what exactly are you saying there? It sounds an awful lot like you're complaining about putting a higher score in CON over a dump stat like STR. You go on to give an example of an enchanter with a 14 or 16 con. Even using the basic scores gives you AT LEAST a 15, 14, and 13 PRIOR to racial bonuses. So the 15 or 14 is used for INT depending on the bonus, and that leaves you at least one of those left AND the 13. That's a +2 or +1 to con depending on what score you slot in there, again, prior to racial bonuses. What are you throwing those scores into? STR?

If you are playing the traditional wizard, you are going to be in the back slinging spells. Hopefully, anything nasty has to go through the rest of your party before they get to you. That doesn't always work, so being prepared is the mantra of the wizard. Like the Boy Scouts, you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. So you do that one of two ways. Build your character to take a hit or pass the occasional CON save, or be sure to take spells that don't require such saves. Blade Ward does the same thing as stoneskin, no save. Take Mirror Image instead of Blur. Make yourself Invisible. Hell, instead of assuming you can cast a spell every round, if it looks like you are in trouble take a Dodge action.

I have no problem with wizards gaining a benefit from a good CON, even a spell casting benefit. What I object to is the notion that casters NEED to have an uber CON, wear armor, take feats or dip into fighter class to have half a chance in hell of casting a massive portion of the wizard spell list including many iconic spells (don't cast fly on yourself without a good CON...you'll likely fall...even from getting hit with just 1 hp of damage).

But yet you do have a problem. You have a problem with the Concentration mechanic, which for you is unfortunately part of this game. I like the mechanic, it makes it so Wizards aren't so super powered anymore. Prior to this, if you met one that was all buffed up it was GG unless you were packing some very specific counters. Now fights are a bit more balanced. As I said in a previous post, the previous editions are down that hall to the left. The days of the God Wizards are done now, and everyone should be thankful for that.

As for your part about a fat illusionist vs other guy that has really no bearing on anything in here, its how you want to play it. My DM always required me to pass a Deception check when I was running my mouth with a few illusions to back it up. I got my party (mostly) out of crazy amounts of trouble, and found interesting ways to bypass entire encounters with a smile and a few well placed illusions. That's not to say I didn't use the illusionist standards like Phantasmal Killer, hell my death total with that spell alone could keep me talking for days. But none of that required one Iota of DEX. However, as party face (which Illusionists excel at in some cases even better than Bards) you'll get more mileage out of a successful Deception or kind word and a please than trying to play Mr Miagi with the crane.

 

[Uller]

In response to my bit about classes being MAD and not being able to get everything out of just one score you said:



....

But you did. You totally did. Here, let me show you:



Here I'll bold the part so you don't skip it:



So what exactly are you saying there?

I was responding to what someone else had said. The clue should have been the "you are arguing" bit. I bolded it so you dont skip it. Context matters.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

This is circuitous logic. The game relies on that ability score because the designers made it rely on that ability score. While wizards have generally never been particularly MAD compared to some other classes, is making them so a good thing? Particularly a part of the game that has not relied on that ability score. How?

Making all classes care about more than just one or just a few ability scores is a good thing. It can lead to people dropping the, in my opinion unnecessary, drive for maxed out scores because it makes a 20 here and an 8 there less appealing than a 14 or 16 in both. And it happens to create a situation in which each character of the same race/class combination has more means of differentiation that is actually meaningful to the game, rather than just to the player.

They already have reasons to care about their Con score, making it integral to a large part of the class features (spells) functioning properly seems questionable, especially given the topic under discussion where the effect is arguably, not all that.

Some spells.

Well, obviously, because the system requires it. The question is this: Why? Is it a balance issue? Are these effects so great that it would 'bad design' to do otherwise. What does it bring to the table?

There are many reasons why concentration as 5th edition uses it has been included in the game. They aren't issues of balance.

What they are is, to list the major things: a way to reduce the compounding of spell effects, which is good to do because spell effects are one of the less precisely measured influences upon the function of the game and when compounded without meaningful limitation can result in one character of X level seeming more powerful than another character of X level to such a degree as to make level not at all valid as a means of estimating approximate power, for any given meaning of power, of the character. That's the main feature of the limit that you can only concentrate on 1 spell at a time, and casting a concentration spell ending concentration on the other spell you were concentrating on.

It also serves as a way to enable characters ability to strip away the buff spells in use by their enemies, without reserving that ability for only those characters of the correct class, with the correct choice of spell, and with the correct preparation and spell slot. That is a good thing for the game because, quite simply, it is "cool" to be able to turn off the enemy's irritating spells.

Here's a point: people's expectations matter. Period.

I agree that expectations matter.

Whether or not they are reasonable expectations is somewhat up for debate.

No, it isn't. Expecting something to work one way when it can be read to work another is not reasonable.

The only means by which to paint this unreasonable expectation as being reasonable is to say "But in this other book it says," and that is why I stated that how things work in previous editions doesn't matter, because it doesn't. If you want something to work how it works in a prior edition, playing that edition is reasonable, as was sharing your opinion during the playtesting period and surveys. Expecting it now that the choice was made to go another direction is unreasonable.

One of the main selling points and design goals was to make 5e 'feel like D&D'.

I'm just going to cut this whole line of discussion right here because what "feels like D&D" cannot be objectively discussed due to the inherent subjective nature of feeling.

People want to discuss how the merits of certain options work, within the context of this edition, and sometimes incidental references to how the archetype has generally played or been perceived in the past can be used to clarify a point made on how things work now.

Clarifying that it isn't how it used to be isn't meaningful to discussing if how it works now being good enough now or not.

I thought we were talking about how 5e actually works. Are we not?

Some of us are. Others are actually talking about how they expected that a new edition wouldn't actually change things, which kind of looks like talking about how 5e actually works on the surface, but deeper down is a completely different topic.

And all of that has basically resulted in this: people that expect what 5e expects them to expect and use stoneskin in a way that matches those expectations seem satisfied with it, and people that expect something else and use stoneskin in some other way that doesn't match what 5e expects of the spell seem to find it lacking. Some might say the question then is which should change, the spell that isn't meeting this expectations from some other source or the expectations that don't match the game they are expectations of?

I say the expectations should change to match the game. Or, to say that more accurately, I think everyone should be playing the version(s) of D&D that matches their expectations of D&D.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As for your part about a fat illusionist vs other guy that has really no bearing on anything in here, its how you want to play it. My DM always required me to pass a Deception check when I was running my mouth with a few illusions to back it up. I got my party (mostly) out of crazy amounts of trouble, and found interesting ways to bypass entire encounters with a smile and a few well placed illusions. That's not to say I didn't use the illusionist standards like Phantasmal Killer, ---- my death total with that spell alone could keep me talking for days. But none of that required one Iota of DEX. However, as party face (which Illusionists excel at in some cases even better than Bards) you'll get more mileage out of a successful Deception or kind word and a please than trying to play Mr Miagi with the crane.

This is a bit of a tangent, but once you get sixth level spells, Illusionists don't even need concentration any more, really. Just cast Major Illusion VI and reshape it whenever you want, into anything you want.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I say the expectations should change to match the game. Or, to say that more accurately, I think everyone should be playing the version(s) of D&D that matches their expectations of D&D.

So much this. Play the game that you're playing, or play a different game.

 

[bgbarcus]

I'm surprised to see so many people have trouble with concentration saves. In my game the wizards are almost impossible to hit. They stay away from melee, hide, use Mirror Image, or whatever else they can do to avoid being targeted by melee attacks. Ranged and area of effect attached catch them sometimes but not often. My monsters have broken only a handful of concentration spells in two years of play.

The only explanation I can think of is that my six player (plus occasional henchmen) party is big enough to give the casters a place to hide. Or my players who run melee classes put more effort into guarding the casters so those spells can be used effectively.

At first, concentration looked like a terrible weakness. In practice it has been a minor inconvenience that causes more trouble by being limited to one at a time than failed saves.

 

[Uller]

The only explanation I can think of is that my six player (plus occasional henchmen) party is big enough to give the casters a place to hide.

This is probably true. Concentration came up more for our Paladin with his shield of faith when we had 5 PCs. Now that we have 4 we notice it more with the squishes in back.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That way, i can have dragons cast it on themselves before battling hasted dual wielding fighters.

*wince* Hasted... dual wielding... fighters? Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think the dragon is going to need any help at all fighting that particular threat. 5E is not 2nd edition and dual-wielding is no longer king, nor is Haste.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I just can't bear to not correct the record here.

Haste is pretty bad in 5E due to the action economy net loss (lose one action casting it, lose one action when it ends, gain part of an action each turn that it is active). Dual wielding isn't great, and against dragons it's even worse because obviously they fly. Haste can potentially be good on characters that have a way to maximize damage per-hit, such as paladins and, surprisingly, rogues (Attack with bonus action; use regular action to Ready, so you get two sneak attacks per round instead of the usual one, at the cost of your reaction). A GWM fighter or barbarian could be a goodish target for Haste, and so could a dual-wielding paladin or a Sharpshooter archer, but a dual-wielding fighter will offer minimal gains.

 

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

I haven't cast it since the public play test, it wasn't a concentration spell at that time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's why my new spells list will include Archaic Improved Haste. Or "Improved Haste of the Ancients". There's a variant of haste in one of the books, Dragon Kings or the Chronomancer's handbook. I'll have to dig it out and update it to 5e, but it will likely function like action surge or the thief's reflexes.

in 3.0 the sword and sorcery books had a modified hast spell that gave you 1d10 partial actions per turn (back that a partial action could be a single attack but not a full attack action... I would totally use that as my base (because I like random).

you gain 1d10 extra bonus actions, you can use these bonus actions for any one thing you can normally do on a bonus action, or make a single weapon attack... roll the d10 every round.

keep track of how many extra actions you gain, because at the end of the spell you age 1 month per bonus action and if this ages you a year or more you must make a Constituion save or be stunned for one round