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D&D 5E How much healing, how much mitigation for a warlord?

Roughly what % of healing vs mitigation should a warlord have?

  • 100% healing / No mitigation

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • 80% healing / 20% mitigation

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • 60% healing / 40% mitigation

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • 50% healing / 50% mitigation

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • 40% healing / 60% mitigation

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • 20% healing / 80% mitigation

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • no healing / 100% mitigation

    Votes: 8 33.3%

Regardless. There's plenty of room for both mitigation and healing. If be fine with any combination thereof. And if healing is the thing holding back a warlord, I'm fine paying that price to get it.
I am not fine with that. If anyone actually wants to play a Warlord that doesn't ever Inspire allies to restore their hps, I'm all for the class being designed to be flexible and customizeable enough to accommodate that choice - no warlord they play need ever restore a single hp. That, along with the plausible deniability of the warlord using some kind of unique/subtle non-casting 'magic,' would constitute a compromise that would satisfy the professed objections of it's detractors, without sacrificing the concept of the class, or the minimal functionality to make it viable at it's traditional mode of contribution to the party.
 

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I am not fine with that. If anyone actually wants to play a Warlord that doesn't ever Inspire allies to restore their hps, I'm all for the class being designed to be flexible and customizeable enough to accommodate that choice - no warlord they play need ever restore a single hp. That, along with the plausible deniability of the warlord using some kind of unique/subtle non-casting 'magic,' would constitute a compromise that would satisfy the professed objections of it's detractors, without sacrificing the concept of the class, or the minimal functionality to make it viable at it's traditional mode of contribution to the party.

How about base mitigation & subclass inspiration-build?
 

If you take mitigation-only to a broken extreme, sure, it can look like it's 'better' than a balanced support class. But it's just an illusion.
It's not an illusion.
Taking mitigation to extreme makes it flat out better.


And at some point, between giving everyone +1 AC, saves, and THP and giving everyone +20 AC, saves, and 2000 THP you can find balance.


That said, i'm still voting for 20% healing. An ally can spend a hit die, which is just enough to get someone off the ground. Then a inspirational sub-class to boost it.
 

It's not an illusion.
Taking mitigation to extreme makes it flat out better.
Flat out broken, yes, but also flat out inadequate at support.

And at some point, between giving everyone +1 AC, saves, and THP and giving everyone +20 AC, saves, and 2000 THP you can find balance.
Balanced against some other choice, sure. There's a point at which a given damage-mitigation ability is balanced with a given hp-restoration ability - both are viable, but not identical or fungible, and choosing between the two becomes a meaningful decision, one that's informed by the situation.

So, if you had an all-healing class and an all-damage-mitigation class in the game, and no class with both, you could balance those classes - and the game would probably work best with both classes in the party. But, if you added a third class - like the Cleric or Bard - that could choose freely between healing & mitigation, than having a couple of them would be better than having one each of the two hypothetical classes.

Because versatility has value.


How about base mitigation & subclass inspiration-build?
How about base both, but you can chose to hard-specialize in one over the other if that fits their concept, or choose flexibility between the two, or choose neither and focus on something else (offensive buffs, action granting, whatever), instead - regardless of archetype?
Then everyone can have what they want. And, as mellored points out, those choices can be balanced.
 
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How about base both, but you can chose to hard-specialize in one over the other, or strike a flexible balance, regardless of archetype? Then everyone can have what they want.

Well, how about a suite of tactics that are selectable so you could build to taste?

Could totally exclude healing if that was your Hangup. Or totally exclude mitigation because you want plain old healing. Or build up a bit of both.

Point is, we're well-tread on first principles at this point, and it seems to me the conversation must move on toward design. The compromises, whatever they are, must now be hammered out, or else we're chasing our tails.

W threads got quarantined. That's fine, but the conversations are worth having and it's incumbent on those of us behind the quarantine to show good faith progress on this topic.

So let's move it forward. If we have selectable tactics, it seems like we're looking at something like a BM style or inspiration die a la bard.

I think "tactics" might even be a cool name instead of powers.
 

Well, how about a suite of tactics that are selectable so you could build to taste?

Could totally exclude healing if that was your Hangup. Or totally exclude mitigation because you want plain old healing. Or build up a bit of both.
That sort of thing, yes.

That denies the basic premise of this poll, though: a fixed ratio.


Point is, we're well-tread on first principles at this point, and it seems to me the conversation must move on toward design. The compromises, whatever they are, must now be hammered out, or else we're chasing our tails.

W threads got quarantined. That's fine, but the conversations are worth having and it's incumbent on those of us behind the quarantine to show good faith progress on this topic.

So let's move it forward. If we have selectable tactics, it seems like we're looking at something like a BM style or inspiration die a la bard.

I think "tactics" might even be a cool name instead of powers.
There's a traditional (they were separate builds), mechanical (INT vs CHA), and conceptual (obviously) difference between Tactical and Inspirational. All warlords were at least a little Inspirational, and few were entirely without anything modeling some sort of tactics or maneuvers.

One of the big dangers, for me personally, in these kinds of discussions is that eventually an ideal implementation idea does come to me, and at that point, I'm prettymuch guaranteed to be disappointed with the final product, because, that idea will either be impossible to actually do or nothing remotely like it will even come close to consideration. So, knowing I am ruining the Warlord for myself permanently, here's the idea that I couldn't stop from having:

The Warlords abilities are limited not by some abstract n-uses/x-period, like encounter powers or CS dice or daily spell slots or anything like that. Instead, they're limited by the ability of their allies' ability to respond to inspiration by out-doing themselves (all those buffs from extra effort, hp-restoration, and temp-hp and similar effects), which is tapping some deep reserves like the fighter's Second Wind 'well of stamina' that most characters don't directly access, under 'normal' (even for adventurers) circumstances.

Inspiration abilities would either tap HD or Inspiration if the character had it at the time or require a save CON from the ally to gain the benefit or a post-combat consequence like exhaustion. At some point, it'd become impossible to gain any benefit from being Inspired - the ally just has nothing left to give.

Separate from that would be tactics. Tactics are the kinds of things that work great the first time you spring them on an unsuspecting enemy, but eventually become part of the repertoire of combat tricks everyone with any combat experience knows about and uses just as part of being able to make extra attacks or have a proficiency bonus and some more hps than the baseline everyman. The warier and more cunning the enemy, the less likely even a brilliant, novel tactic is likely to be, and pulling the same trick a second time on the same foe will almost never work - even if they've just seen it before or heard about it, it'll be harder. The obvious mechanic, there, IMHO, is an INT save by the enemy, but it could go all the way down to "this ability is usable once - ever" (a tactic so novel and brilliant and completely impractical without complete surprise that word of it precedes you everywhere and it never works again). Yes, an INT save means that certain monsters will fall for the same tactic over and over - for some, like a pre-programmed golem or mindless ooze that might even make sense.

Finally, you'd bring those two limited resources together with personal combat prowess, and have maneuvers which tap either or both (or for repeatable ones, neither) resources. A warlord might 'know' a lot of tactics and maneuvers, and be able to use inspiration in specific ways as a result. To make it more interesting including an ally in a maneuver might require training (it it uses tactics) or 'bonding' (if it uses inspiration) as part of backstory or even as an optional bookkeeping-exercise (for those who enjoy that sort of thing, or DMs who want a further check on the class's effectiveness) involving downtime days. And, the effectiveness of a maneuver could depend on the level of both the Warlord /and/ the ally (so a high level warlord still couldn't do that much with a town full of low-level peasants, and a low level one couldn't much help to a high-level party).

Finally, the more potent maneuvers could be gated by Warlord level.

So the warlord would end up with a few basic maneuvers he could do as much as he wanted, which could include the traditional at-wills (which'd either scale with level, or have higher-level alternatives or both). And then a selection of other 'known' maneuvers limited by Inspiration or Tactical considerations or both, that he would need to manage carefully.
 

Well, how about a suite of tactics that are selectable so you could build to taste?
I'd be fine with a class that didn't have archetypes, and instead you just built your own. Keeping closer to the spirits of 4e.


1: You get X tactical dice at the end of your turn. Dice can be used to boost your own damage, or on a maneuver.


2: Commander's Strike: You use an action and expend your tactical die. Select an ally and a target. If the ally takes an attack action on his turn, he can make a second attack against the target.

3: Maneuvers: Select 2 maneuver.
*Inspiring word: As a bonus action, someone can spend a hit die.
*Improved Commander' Strike: Spend your die when you use commander's strike to increase the damage.
*Warning: As a reaction, you can spend your die to boost a creatures AC by the roll.
*Attack: As a reaction, you can spend your die to boost a creatures to-hit by the roll.
*Initiative: When you roll initiative, you can roll your die and add it to any creatures result.
*Bravada: When you use your action to take a maneuver, you may use your bonus action to attack.

4: ABI

5: Gain a second die.

...

7: Select 2 maneuver from this list or from the previous list.
*Double Inspiring Word: You can target 2 creatures with inspiring word.
*Lead the Assault: When you attack, you can also use commander's strike.
*Arcane Recovery: An ally can regain spell slots equal to 1/4 your warlord level, but they also gain a level of exhaustion.
*Inspired Action: You can spend an action, and an ally can use his reaction to spend 4 hit dice but not regain any hit points. Instead they can imminently take an action.
*Inspired Recovery: When an ally spend a hit die to regain hit points, they gain extra hit points equal to your Cha modifier.
...

11: Gain a third die.

(ect...)
 

That sort of thing, yes.

That denies the basic premise of this poll, though: a fixed ratio.


There's a traditional (they were separate builds), mechanical (INT vs CHA), and conceptual (obviously) difference between Tactical and Inspirational. All warlords were at least a little Inspirational, and few were entirely without anything modeling some sort of tactics or maneuvers.

One of the big dangers, for me personally, in these kinds of discussions is that eventually an ideal implementation idea does come to me, and at that point, I'm prettymuch guaranteed to be disappointed with the final product, because, that idea will either be impossible to actually do or nothing remotely like it will even come close to consideration. So, knowing I am ruining the Warlord for myself permanently, here's the idea that I couldn't stop from having:

The Warlords abilities are limited not by some abstract n-uses/x-period, like encounter powers or CS dice or daily spell slots or anything like that. Instead, they're limited by the ability of their allies' ability to respond to inspiration by out-doing themselves (all those buffs from extra effort, hp-restoration, and temp-hp and similar effects), which is tapping some deep reserves like the fighter's Second Wind 'well of stamina' that most characters don't directly access, under 'normal' (even for adventurers) circumstances.

Inspiration abilities would either tap HD or Inspiration if the character had it at the time or require a save CON from the ally to gain the benefit or a post-combat consequence like exhaustion. At some point, it'd become impossible to gain any benefit from being Inspired - the ally just has nothing left to give.

Separate from that would be tactics. Tactics are the kinds of things that work great the first time you spring them on an unsuspecting enemy, but eventually become part of the repertoire of combat tricks everyone with any combat experience knows about and uses just as part of being able to make extra attacks or have a proficiency bonus and some more hps than the baseline everyman. The warier and more cunning the enemy, the less likely even a brilliant, novel tactic is likely to be, and pulling the same trick a second time on the same foe will almost never work - even if they've just seen it before or heard about it, it'll be harder. The obvious mechanic, there, IMHO, is an INT save by the enemy, but it could go all the way down to "this ability is usable once - ever" (a tactic so novel and brilliant and completely impractical without complete surprise that word of it precedes you everywhere and it never works again). Yes, an INT save means that certain monsters will fall for the same tactic over and over - for some, like a pre-programmed golem or mindless ooze that might even make sense.

Finally, you'd bring those two limited resources together with personal combat prowess, and have maneuvers which tap either or both (or for repeatable ones, neither) resources. A warlord might 'know' a lot of tactics and maneuvers, and be able to use inspiration in specific ways as a result. To make it more interesting including an ally in a maneuver might require training (it it uses tactics) or 'bonding' (if it uses inspiration) as part of backstory or even as an optional bookkeeping-exercise (for those who enjoy that sort of thing, or DMs who want a further check on the class's effectiveness) involving downtime days. And, the effectiveness of a maneuver could depend on the level of both the Warlord /and/ the ally (so a high level warlord still couldn't do that much with a town full of low-level peasants, and a low level one couldn't much help to a high-level party).

Finally, the more potent maneuvers could be gated by Warlord level.

So the warlord would end up with a few basic maneuvers he could do as much as he wanted, which could include the traditional at-wills (which'd either scale with level, or have higher-level alternatives or both). And then a selection of other 'known' maneuvers limited by Inspiration or Tactical considerations or both, that he would need to manage carefully.

Alright, I see where you're going with those. However, I'd suggest using some of 5E's beaten path on frequency limitations.

Like on inspiration. Rather than tapping the ally's reserve (4E tradition), what about the 5E convention of "ally must take short or long rest before they can again benefit from this feature." Basically imposes similar limitation as to who can be inspired and how often. But doesn't infringe on other player's assets (as spending their inspiration and HD does, however fair the trade or good the benefit).

INT save on tactics is a neat enough limitation. But I think tactics is also expansive enough to include things like moving allies (which wouldn't need a save at all).
 

I'd be fine with a class that didn't have archetypes, and instead you just built your own. Keeping closer to the spirits of 4e.


1: You get X tactical dice at the end of your turn. Dice can be used to boost your own damage, or on a maneuver.


2: Commander's Strike: You use an action and expend your tactical die. Select an ally and a target. If the ally takes an attack action on his turn, he can make a second attack against the target.

3: Maneuvers: Select 2 maneuver.
*Inspiring word: As a bonus action, someone can spend a hit die.
*Improved Commander' Strike: Spend your die when you use commander's strike to increase the damage.
*Warning: As a reaction, you can spend your die to boost a creatures AC by the roll.
*Attack: As a reaction, you can spend your die to boost a creatures to-hit by the roll.
*Initiative: When you roll initiative, you can roll your die and add it to any creatures result.
*Bravada: When you use your action to take a maneuver, you may use your bonus action to attack.

4: ABI

5: Gain a second die.

...

7: Select 2 maneuver from this list or from the previous list.
*Double Inspiring Word: You can target 2 creatures with inspiring word.
*Lead the Assault: When you attack, you can also use commander's strike.
*Arcane Recovery: An ally can regain spell slots equal to 1/4 your warlord level, but they also gain a level of exhaustion.
*Inspired Action: You can spend an action, and an ally can use his reaction to spend 4 hit dice but not regain any hit points. Instead they can imminently take an action.
*Inspired Recovery: When an ally spend a hit die to regain hit points, they gain extra hit points equal to your Cha modifier.
...

11: Gain a third die.

(ect...)

I proposed something like this in the warlord PrC thread.
 


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