Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Kramodlog]

Kind of. You forgot to mention how I'm better person than you.

Speciesism makes sure squirrels do not get that privilege.

 

[Maxperson]

2) as a car salesman, you're going to have the opportunity to check the person's actual credit worthiness, so judging based merely on appearance, or worse, race, means you are not going to make as many sales as you otherwise might.

That takes time, though. In the time it takes to run someone and find out if they have good or bad credit, multiple other potential sales have been taken by other salesmen. They will try to maximize the odds of finding someone with good credit, and race is part of that assessment.

The discussion hasn't been about whether same race customers in differing attire get treated differently. Nobody is disputing that.

You made the assertion that white people don't have to worry about how they dress when car shopping. I pointed out how that was incorrect and why.

 

[Maxperson]

But talking about your own personal experience is.

And that is not what I said.

To be clear, in the USA, there is racism and it is institutionalized. Caucasians are largely unaffected by the negative aspects of this institutionalized racism. Being unaffected by something negative is a privilege. Caucasians in the USA are privileged from birth simply because they were born in the right family.

Most caucasians won't notice this privilege because for them its the norm and called everyday life. They do not even need to discriminate themselves to benefit from this privilege. You just need to be of the right race and ethnicity. When someone says "privilege doesn't exist, the police gave me a speeding ticket last night...", that person is essentially saying "let them eat cake".

So are we now going to start calling it black privilege because black americans are largely unaffected by ebola and starvation that goes on in Africa? Calling something "white" privilege or "black" privilege just because a race is largely unaffected by something is counterproductive. It incorrectly shifts the blame and/or focus onto race, rather than the true underlying causes of the disparity, such as economics and culture.

 

[Kramodlog]

So are we now going to start calling it black privilege because black americans are largely unaffected by ebola and starvation that goes on in Africa? Calling something "white" privilege or "black" privilege just because a race is largely unaffected by something is counterproductive. It incorrectly shifts the blame and/or focus onto race, rather than the true underlying causes of the disparity, such as economics and culture.

I never used the words "white privilege", you're critiquing your own words.

That being said, talking about responsability is important. It needs to be said that caucasians in the US mainly institutionalized racism, largely perpetuate it and mostly benefit from it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That takes time, though. In the time it takes to run someone and find out if they have good or bad credit, multiple other potential sales have been taken by other salesmen. They will try to maximize the odds of finding someone with good credit, and race is part of that assessment.

A computerized credit check takes a few minutes- and most of that time is spent in doing the data entry. Not really enough time to lose "multiple" potential sales.

Simply put, it is a grave error to treat anyone walking into your business as "not a customer" unless you know for a fact that they are not.

You made the assertion that white people don't have to worry about how they dress when car shopping. I pointed out how that was incorrect and why.

No. Again, nobody is denying that a well-dressed white person will get more attention than a poorly-dressed one.

I made the assertion that comparing treatment of whites vs whites is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. And that the concern that minorities have is different in quality- even if they dress well, they will not be treated as well as Caucasians will.

 

[Maxperson]

I never used the words "white privilege", you're critiquing your own words.

That being said, talking about responsability is important. It needs to be said that caucasians in the US mainly institutionalized racism, largely perpetuate it and mostly benefit from it.

This sort of thinking is why the disparity is so slow to go away. By all means, let's continue to focus on race instead of the underlying causes for the disparity. If we focused on the real reasons, we might actually get something accomplished, but then you wouldn't be able to complain anymore.

 

[Umbran]

That being said, talking about responsability is important. It needs to be said that caucasians in the US mainly institutionalized racism, largely perpetuate it and mostly benefit from it.

It looks like you are talking about a combination of accountability and responsibility. It really helps to separate them.

We don't really need to consider accountability unless we are aiming to institute punitive measures against those who need to be held accountable. The situation was begun by people long dead. Nobody alive today is accountable for those actions. We are each, at worst, accountable for only our own acts that perpetuate the system.

Folks today, however, could be considered responsible for fixing the problems. They are, *because of the problems*, in a better position to solve those problems.

Which is to say, the most constructive way forward is to forgive the past (not forget, just forgive today for what they cannot change). Expect, however, that people should open their eyes, and work to make the world a better place going forward. Hold them to a standard for the future, not the past.

 

[Kramodlog]

It looks like you are talking about a combination of accountability and responsibility. It really helps to separate them.

Ok. There isn't any French equivalent to accountability, at least that I'm aware of. They both translate to responsabilité.

We don't really need to consider accountability unless we are aiming to institute punitive measures against those who need to be held accountable. The situation was begun by people long dead. Nobody alive today is accountable for those actions. We are each, at worst, accountable for only our own acts that perpetuate the system.

Folks today, however, could be considered responsible for fixing the problems. They are, *because of the problems*, in a better position to solve those problems.

Which is to say, the most constructive way forward is to forgive the past (not forget, just forgive today for what they cannot change). Expect, however, that people should open their eyes, and work to make the world a better place going forward. Hold them to a standard for the future, not the past.

[/quote]Leaving momentarely the words responsability and accountability aside, I have an issue with saying "dead people did bad stuff and I have nothing to do with it". A lot of people say they are proud of their heritage and their nation's history. Cool, no problem there, but if someone claims the positive things of his/her heritage, shouldn't it come with the negative too?

Also, why should a nation's current wealth be dissociated from the exploitation of the past on which part of the current wealth was built? For Québec and the USA, land stolen from Native Americans is the first thing that comes to mind. So does the wealth generated by slave labor.

I'm not sure how to deal with this. I'm not saying there necessarely should be punitive mesures or compensation in some form, I'm just saying the present isn't dissociated from the past.

 

[Kramodlog]

By all means, let's continue to focus on race instead of the underlying causes for the disparity.

I agree. Let us focus on racism, discrimination and the people it affects.

 

[Cor Azer]

This sort of thinking is why the disparity is so slow to go away. By all means, let's continue to focus on race instead of the underlying causes for the disparity. If we focused on the real reasons, we might actually get something accomplished, but then you wouldn't be able to complain anymore.

But generally speaking, the underlying reason is the institutionalized racism (or other -ism). You keep talking about the economic factors, but the truth is that minorities generally suffer higher rates of poverty because institutionalized racism makes it harder for them to get better educations and thus better jobs.

The reason privilege is being talked about is to raise awareness. Too many people unaffected by racism, or sexism, or able-ism, etc. simply believe these problems are solved because they either don't affect them, or because there are occasional high-profile victories in progressing forward. But those suffering through such cannot solve things on their own; they need those with privilege to help - if not directly, then by at least being aware of their privilege, and not holding the lack of privilege against minorities, even if unintentional.

Now, I'm sure there are some bad actors (in the people doing stuff sense, not entertainment sense) trying to use 'privilege' as a hammer, but that doesn't mean the idea is faulty, it just speaks to the character of those bad actors.