Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Umbran]

Ok. There isn't any French equivalent to accountability, at least that I'm aware of. They both translate to responsabilité.

Noted. One of those times when laying out the semantics actually aids understanding.

Leaving momentarely the words responsability and accountability aside, I have an issue with saying "dead people did bad stuff and I have nothing to do with it". A lot of people say they are proud of their heritage and their nation's history. Cool, no problem there, but if someone claims the positive things of his/her heritage, shouldn't it come with the negative too?

Probably. But, so long as it doesn't get in the way of fixing real-world problems now, I'm not going to sweat over it.

Also, why should a nation's current wealth be dissociated from the exploitation of the past on which part of the current wealth was built? For Québec and the USA, land stolen from Native Americans is the first thing that comes to mind. So does the wealth generated by slave labor.

I'm not sure how to deal with this. I'm not saying there necessarely should be punitive mesures or compensation in some form, I'm just saying the present isn't dissociated from the past.

The present comes from the past, yes. And those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. But if your father kills someone, we don't toss you in jail for it. Our basic idea of fairness says that you shouldn't pay the price for decisions you had no part in. Our basic idea of fairness does (usually) include the idea that some inequities shouldn't stand, and if you are in a position to help with them, you ought to do so.

There's a practical element to this. What's the point - vindication, or fixing current situations?

 

[Kramodlog]

Probably. But, so long as it doesn't get in the way of fixing real-world problems now, I'm not going to sweat over it.

The present comes from the past, yes. And those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. But if your father kills someone, we don't toss you in jail for it. Our basic idea of fairness says that you shouldn't pay the price for decisions you had no part in. Our basic idea of fairness does (usually) include the idea that some inequities shouldn't stand, and if you are in a position to help with them, you ought to do so.

There's a practical element to this. What's the point - vindication, or fixing current situations?

Obviously, to crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. I remember a conversation I had with an USian of Portuguese origines. Second generation I believe. In essence, what he was saying was that his ancestors didn't live in the USA when people could own slaves, so he shouldn't be taxed to pay reparation to descendants of slaves. It made me laugh, as I'm not for reparation, but it underlined a problem. That racism was from another time and had no bearing on him today. The current wealth and standard of living he enjoys was built in part on the work of slaves? Meh. Not his problem. I'm not sure this attitude toward the past can lead to a fix.

 

[Maxperson]

Leaving momentarely the words responsability and accountability aside, I have an issue with saying "dead people did bad stuff and I have nothing to do with it". A lot of people say they are proud of their heritage and their nation's history. Cool, no problem there, but if someone claims the positive things of his/her heritage, shouldn't it come with the negative too?

No. I'm not responsible or accountable for the good things of the past, either. I can pick and choose what I'm proud of and what I'm not proud of when it comes to the past.

 

[Maxperson]

It looks like you are talking about a combination of accountability and responsibility. It really helps to separate them.

We don't really need to consider accountability unless we are aiming to institute punitive measures against those who need to be held accountable. The situation was begun by people long dead. Nobody alive today is accountable for those actions. We are each, at worst, accountable for only our own acts that perpetuate the system.

Folks today, however, could be considered responsible for fixing the problems. They are, *because of the problems*, in a better position to solve those problems.

Which is to say, the most constructive way forward is to forgive the past (not forget, just forgive today for what they cannot change). Expect, however, that people should open their eyes, and work to make the world a better place going forward. Hold them to a standard for the future, not the past.

I disagree. I'm not accountable or responsible for fixing the problems of the past simply because of the position I am in. Fixing the underlying issues of what people call white privilege is something I should want to do because I'm a decent human being, but it's a choice, not a responsibility. We don't hold the billionaires responsible for fixing all the poor people simply because they have money.

Creating them, yes. Fixing them, no.

 

[Maxperson]

But generally speaking, the underlying reason is the institutionalized racism (or other -ism). You keep talking about the economic factors, but the truth is that minorities generally suffer higher rates of poverty because institutionalized racism makes it harder for them to get better educations and thus better jobs.

Nobody is forcing them to drop out of high school and join gangs. They have a free education, but cultural influences cause schooling to be far lower on the ladder of importance than it should be.

The reason privilege is being talked about is to raise awareness. Too many people unaffected by racism, or sexism, or able-ism, etc. simply believe these problems are solved because they either don't affect them, or because there are occasional high-profile victories in progressing forward. But those suffering through such cannot solve things on their own; they need those with privilege to help - if not directly, then by at least being aware of their privilege, and not holding the lack of privilege against minorities, even if unintentional.

It doesn't raise awareness, though. It created defensiveness over issues that are not in need of fixing. It's very name is an attack on white people. There is also no large institution of racism to fix. There are pockets of individual racism, but that's not the cause of most of the problems. Negative cultural influences have a far greater effect. Fix those negative cultural influences and most of the issues go away within a generation.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You keep talking about the economic factors, but the truth is that minorities generally suffer higher rates of poverty because institutionalized racism makes it harder for them to get better educations and thus better jobs.

Here's a classic from colleges, universities, and even some high-schools: preferential admissions for legacy students.

Many institutions of high standards will relax those standards a bit when a prospective student is "a legacy"- for those unfamiliar with the term, that means they had an ancestor who graduated from the school. The more prestigious the ancestor, the more being a legacy helps.

The thing is, though- sometimes for racist reasons, sometimes for purely economic ones, most likely a mix- legacy students are overwhelmingly the descendants of Caucasians.

In the 60's, my grandfather was a prof at both Tulane and Loyola, and my Dad was a student who served on the admissions board. At that time, you had just started seeing a push to give minority students the benefit of "affirmative action." As we all know, there was pushback on this.

But a point in your favor for being a minority (to improve diversity) who couldn't go to a particular school* is mathematically no different than a point in your favor because your grandfather went to that school 40 years ago.









* Tulane's medical school charter barred the admission of blacks and other minorities. My Dad was the first admitted (due to perfect storm of events) and the first to graduate.

 

[Sadras]

Just questions from a curious bystander. How are your experiences in the northern parts of USA with regards to racism? Can one definitely see an improvement in the treatment of black people as opposed to the south? Do the east or west coast play a role at all?

 

[Kramodlog]

No. I'm not responsible or accountable for the good things of the past, either.

I guess you didn't understand what "responsability and accountability aside" ment.

I can pick and choose what I'm proud of and what I'm not proud of when it comes to the past.

I didn't say you can't. You can revise history, ignore facts and just make up stuff too if it makes you feel better.

Did you know that the Founding Fathers invited black people from Africa to come to the US? The Africans were so grateful to have this chance that they offered their services to white people for seven generation. It is something white USians should be proud of, giving these brave black people a chance at a better life!

 

[Kramodlog]

Just questions from a curious bystander. How are your experiences in the northern parts of USA with regards to racism? Can one definitely see an improvement in the treatment of black people as opposed to the south? Do the east or west coast play a role at all?

Map number five might provide some answers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/08/12-maps-that-explain-what-divides-america/

 

[Maxperson]

I guess you didn't understand what "responsability and accountability aside" ment.

And I guess you didn't understand that it's irrelevant. No matter which word you choose, it doesn't apply to me.

Did you know that the Founding Fathers invited black people from Africa to come to the US? The Africans were so grateful to have this chance that they offered their services to white people for seven generation. It is something white USians should be proud of, giving these brave black people a chance at a better life!

And I'm not in any way responsible for that. I don't owe anyone whose ancestors were slaves anything. Here's something a bit more recent than slavery for you. The holocaust. Germans killed 6 million of my people. Guess what. Not a single German who was not alive for that is in any way responsible. My first girlfriend was German and I didn't care or think she somehow owed me something because of what her grandfather or great grandfather might have done.