Looks like someone enjoyed her time in jail

[tomBitonti]

To followup, I *can* see that, if close family involvement is normal, then a family with homosexual parents would be in a strong conflict with LDS teachings, and that would create a lot of conflicts to any who tried to be involved in both the LDS and the family.

I wonder, though, about families who are not LDS members but who are living in strong LDS communities, and who allow their children to join together with the LDS community.

Or, what happens for children in group homes, or who are living with a relative (say, because their single parent is deployed).

Thx!

TomB

 

[Umbran]

Not really. In Québec you get all the same rights* as a married couple or those in civil unions. Your considered de facto spouses. About a 37% of couples are in that situtation. Half are married and the rest are in civil unions.

We may have a language problem. Here, a "couple" is just a pair of people dating. It carries no formal or legal status.

Some states have a concept of "common law marriage", where the couple has lived and represented themselves as married for long periods of time without actually having signed the legal documents. But the vast majority of "couples" here don't fit that definition. Here, you can be a couple for years, even cohabit for years, and not be legally bound in any real sense.

Marriage doesn't convey anything special to couples, it is just a ritual, so there shouldn't be any reason why it gives special rights.

In the US, marriage is not just a ritual. It includes the signing of a legally binding document which carries with it a number of rights and responsibilities.

So do married couples. Marriage doesn't garanty anything.

Here, it does. Specifically, in this case, the matter of child support is determined as part of divorce proceedings. There are no such proceedings for a couple.

 

[trappedslider]

I'll take a look when I can -- I can't listen to the video here at work.

This:



If I recount the specific items:

Formal blessing and naming;
Membership record
Assignment of visiting and home teachers.
Placement in primary (school?) and other Church organizations.

Barring a child from these seems to harm the child.

I'm reading this as a way to punish the child as a way to punish and pressure the parents.


TomB

All I can say is that you're reading in the light of antimormons and other detractors....When Elder Christofferson clearly says "We don't want there to be the conflicts that that would engender. We don't want the child to have to deal with issues that might arise where the parents feel one way and the expectations of the Church are very different."

To answer :

I wonder, though, about families who are not LDS members but who are living in strong LDS communities, and who allow their children to join together with the LDS community.

Or, what happens for children in group homes, or who are living with a relative (say, because their single parent is deployed).

Thx!

TomB

Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

Before you can teach and baptize an investigator who is under legal age, you must obtain permission of the parent(s) or legal guardian(s), preferably in writing. In addition, you should have good reason to believe that the child understands the baptismal covenant and will make every effort to keep it through obedience to the gospel, including faithfully attending Church meetings.

Do I need permission of the spouse in order to baptize a husband or wife?

Yes. Do not baptize a married person without the consent of his or her spouse.

If the father in a family is not ready for baptism, should I baptize the family or wait until the father is ready?

If the father of a family is not ready for baptism and confirmation but other family members are, you may tell the father you prefer not to baptize the family without him because the Church respects the head of the home and because family members will progress in the gospel best as a family unit. If the father continues to decline, you may baptize and confirm other family members with his consent.

and lastly,

Question 4 in the baptismal interview asks if a person has been involved in a serious sin, such as an abortion, a homosexual relationship, or a serious crime. What should I do if someone confesses such a sin?

1. Instructions for teaching missionaries. Sometimes investigators may volunteer information about such sins as you teach about the commandments and invite them to make commitments. However, if they do not say anything but you think they may have a problem, prepare them for the baptismal interview by asking them if they have been involved in any of these sins. If you become aware of a serious sin, do not ask about the details of the sin. Do not schedule a baptismal date or make any promises about whether they will be cleared for baptism and confirmation. Express your love and review the principle of repentance. Kindly explain that these sins are serious and that a person with more maturity and experience (your mission president or someone he assigns) will talk with them and help them with these matters. Then send a baptismal interview request directly to the mission president.

2. Instructions for the person conducting the interview for baptism. If the missionaries have properly taught the candidate before the baptismal interview, these issues, if they exist, should have been directed to the mission president. If they do arise, express your love and review the commandments and the principle of repentance. Kindly explain that these sins are serious and that a person with more maturity and experience (your mission president or someone he assigns) will talk with them and help them with these matters. Then forward a baptismal interview request directly to the mission president.

 

[megamania]

Without dealing with the whole same sex thing- push comes to shove, the law says the marriage can happen. her JOB is based on following the laws of her state. If she has this much of an issue with it its time for a new job. Stop the drama.

 

[tomBitonti]

All I can say is that you're reading in the light of antimormons and other detractors....When Elder Christofferson clearly says "We don't want there to be the conflicts that that would engender. We don't want the child to have to deal with issues that might arise where the parents feel one way and the expectations of the Church are very different."

To answer :

Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

Before you can teach and baptize an investigator who is under legal age, you must obtain permission of the parent(s) or legal guardian(s), preferably in writing. In addition, you should have good reason to believe that the child understands the baptismal covenant and will make every effort to keep it through obedience to the gospel, including faithfully attending Church meetings.

Do I need permission of the spouse in order to baptize a husband or wife?

Yes. Do not baptize a married person without the consent of his or her spouse.

If the father in a family is not ready for baptism, should I baptize the family or wait until the father is ready?

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...enjoyed-her-time-in-jail/page20#ixzz3rJbMvizb


(text omitted)

Question 4 in the baptismal interview asks if a person has been involved in a serious sin, such as an abortion, a homosexual relationship, or a serious crime. What should I do if someone confesses such a sin?

(text omitted)

For Roman Catholicism, infants are (or can be) baptized when they are quite young (in their first year, if not in the first few months). There is no chance that the child could have any understanding of what is happening.

Other branches have different outlooks, in particular, not having baptism until the recipient can have an understanding. I'm not sure if Roman Catholics treat confirmation the same as other branches treat baptism. Confirmation can be a very Pro Forma event.

Doing some searches I found this:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=601558

Canon Law:

Can. 868 §1 For an infant to be baptised lawfully it is required:

1° that the parents, or at least one of them, or the person who lawfully holds their place, give their consent;

2° that there be a well-founded hope that the child will be brought up in the catholic religion. If such hope is truly lacking, the baptism is, in accordance with the provisions of particular law, to be deferred and the parents advised of the reason for this.

§2 An infant of catholic parents, indeed even of non-catholic parents, may in danger of death be baptised even if the parents are opposed to it.

That would make the canonical rule for Catholics very similar to the rule for LDS.

There is more here than I realized.

Thx!
TomB

 

[billd91]

Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

Before you can teach and baptize an investigator who is under legal age, you must obtain permission of the parent(s) or legal guardian(s), preferably in writing. In addition, you should have good reason to believe that the child understands the baptismal covenant and will make every effort to keep it through obedience to the gospel, including faithfully attending Church meetings.

Nobody's expecting the Mormon cleric to swoop in and perform a baptism against the wishes of the parent (well, they might because the church certainly does perform non-consensual baptisms when putting people in their genealogical records but let's pretend that's not an issue). We can dispense with any argument along those lines right there. The problem here is that if the parents/guardians in the household want the child baptized along with kids their own age, the church is going to say no because of the sins of the father, not the sins of the child. And though that's been part of monotheism's jealous god motif for a long time, it's still bad and unjust policy.

 

[trappedslider]

The problem here is that if the parents/guardians in the household want the child baptized along with kids their own age, the church is going to say no because of the sins of the father, not the sins of the child. And though that's been part of monotheism's jealous god motif for a long time, it's still bad and unjust policy.

Then I guess it's also unjust according to you for those children of polygamist too since it's the same policy that they have been under. Also the child isn't being raised in an environment that is in accordance with the teachings of The Church, so that they wont be taught one thing at church and another at home.

Also given your comment about "monotheism's jealous god mofit.." I can already feel that you really aren't looking for anything deeper when it comes to an explanation on this topic.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

No x 10.

 

[billd91]

Then I guess it's also unjust according to you for those children of polygamist too since it's the same policy that they have been under. Also the child isn't being raised in an environment that is in accordance with the teachings of The Church, so that they wont be taught one thing at church and another at home.

Also given your comment about "monotheism's jealous god mofit.." I can already feel that you really aren't looking for anything deeper when it comes to an explanation on this topic.

Being dicks to kids for things parents do is simply wrong, whether the church is doing it because the parents are a same-sex couple or polygamists. It's just another stupid case of misplaced responsibility.

As far as the jealous god thing, try looking up "sins of the father". It goes hand in hand with god being a jealous god in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. Then maybe think of what the Odd Couple said about what happens when you assume...

 

[trappedslider]

Being dicks to kids for things parents do is simply wrong, whether the church is doing it because the parents are a same-sex couple or polygamists. It's just another stupid case of misplaced responsibility.

As far as the jealous god thing, try looking up "sins of the father". It goes hand in hand with god being a jealous god in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. Then maybe think of what the Odd Couple said about what happens when you assume...

Sorry for the assumption, but considering you ignored the explanation or jsut feel it's crap and reasoning behind the policy change, and the fact that I've had to deal with folks who mock and are anti for the past few years,so when I see comments like yours.....and one thing that everyone seems to be missing out on is the fact that it's policy not Doctrine, so it's not like it's set in stone to never change.