D&D 5E Oath of Vengeance Paladin?

[CyanideSprite]

I feel like the tenets "Fight the greater evil" and "By any means necessary" give a lot of freedom for the paladin to do extremely heinous things that are completely unsuitable for a paladin. Furthermore, even if they act completely evil, forcing them to be an "Oathbreaker" doesn't even make much sense since they aren't breaking their oath to do things like torture for the greater good... and it's hardly a punishment since Oathbreaker has so many benefits itself.

In a game I ran recently, a paladin in the group went Oath of Vengeance and declared alcohol to be the greatest threat to humanity after seeing so many bar fights, abuses in families, alcohol poisonings, etc, which all had alcohol in common. He went on a quest to abolish alcohol by any means necessary. During his adventures he would torture people or even use a Philter of Love to force someone to be obsessed with him for even the most vague information he could (like for information about a magic item that he rationalized MIGHT assist him in ridding the world of alcohol).

I have a view of Paladins as they are described in the handbook in the opening pages before any of the oaths come into play as being the archetypal heroic knights in shining armor so this does NOT sit right with me but Oath of Vengeance seems to permit some ridiculous things without penalty. I'm not quite sure how to reign that in while giving him freedom to have his character because it made the rest of the neutral/good party members extremely uncomfortable.

Edit: I don't want to punish the player for role playing well. He does a fine job. His character is supposed to be "good" aligned, but there doesn't seem to be a penalty in any way for doing evil things to innocent people because of Oath of Vengeance's "By Any Means Necessary" tenet. There are some role playing things that can be done to reign him in, but I'm kinda hoping I overlooked a way to enforce a Paladin not harming innocent people when he's not breaking a tenet on a technicality.

 

[Quartz]

This sounds like it may be better dealt with by a quiet word between the two of you out of game rather than in game.

 

[Madeiner]

I believe you are missing something here.
You need to clarify (to yourself, too) what the problem is.

Would it be okay if that character was behaving the same way, but his class was "fighter" or "warlock" instead of "paladin"?
Would the other neutral/good party members be okay with it, if he wasn't a paladin?

You need to decide if the problem is the "paladin" title, or if its the "evil" behavior.
In the first case, you might want to try and accept the fact that in 5e, paladin seems to be more intended as a warrior that firmly believes in something. You might want not to accept that, and ask a rebuild of the PC, so he gets to behave the same way, but without the "paladin" sticky note on his character sheet.

In the second case, you might want to talk to the player and tell him that you are uncomfortable with his PCs motivations and morale compass.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This is a great opportunity to have the paladin be opposed by the knights in shining armor. Here committed evil acts in his pursuit, and others don't take kindly to such antics. Have him be confronted by the authorities who demand be cease this lawlessness it face the consequences. If he continues, brand the paladin outlaw and have a bounty placed on his head for his crimes.

The oath is not a shield against the law or the forces of good.

 

[CyanideSprite]

I should have also said, please don't come in here and say interpretations of the Oath of Vengeance "depend on the dm/game/setting/etc"... Yes. We know. It always does. But there wouldn't be a game without common rules and this is something that should be debated because it expressly goes against the identity that Paladins have held from the beginning.

There shouldn't have to be a reason to talk to a player outside the campaign for this issue.

 

[CyanideSprite]

This is a great opportunity to have the paladin be opposed by the knights in shining armor. Here committed evil acts in his pursuit, and others don't take kindly to such antics. Have him be confronted by the authorities who demand be cease this lawlessness it face the consequences. If he continues, brand the paladin outlaw and have a bounty placed on his head for his crimes.

The oath is not a shield against the law or the forces of good.

This is a good idea. Something to give scope and reign in the behavior in the context of paladins. Him being "out of line" is a big deal for the other players, so making it a big deal for other paladins and giving them a bad name is pretty clever.

Everyone else saying "talk to him outside of the game", just stop. You can say that to every single issue that comes up and it's not useful. Yes. You can always talk to someone outside of a game and tell them to change their character, make houserules against stuff, etc... But the fact of the matter is, Oath of Vengeance Paladins exist in the rulebook and it gives characters a wealth of freedom to do horrible things when it feels more like the spirit of it is to be more like Batman (hence Dark Knight) and not Don Cheney.

 

[Madeiner]

I should have also said, please don't come in here and say interpretations of the Oath of Vengeance "depend on the dm/game/setting/etc"... Yes. We know. It always does. But there wouldn't be a game without common rules and this is something that should be debated because it expressly goes against the identity that Paladins have held from the beginning.

There shouldn't have to be a reason to talk to a player outside the campaign for this issue.

Okey, but you still haven't identified your problem for us to help you!
You want him to NOT be a paladin and be allowed to behave like that, or do you NOT want him to behave like that regardless of class?

You say:

I'm not quite sure as a DM how to reign that in while giving him freedom to have his character because it made the rest of the neutral/good party members extremely uncomfortable.

If you/other players are not okay with it, it's an issue you have to resolve outside the game, by speaking to the players.
There is the need to do it, because the issue is different expectation of what should be in the game. This is a meta-problem that can only be resolved succesfully by talking to the player, not the character.

This is a good idea. Something to give scope and reign in the behavior in the context of paladins. Him being "out of line" is a big deal for the other players, so making it a big deal for other paladins and giving them a bad name is pretty clever.

This is a good idea if you are okay with the player's behavior, but want consequences for the character's actions, as there logically should be. If the problem is that a paladin is doing it, then this is a good idea. If the problem is that you dont want ANY player to behave like that, then this is not a good idea, because it has potential to make things worse.

 

[CyanideSprite]

Madeiner, just stop.

I'm looking for ways to penalize a character who claims to be good for committing evil acts in an otherwise good natured party and setting. I'm not going to strip his character away from him.

Edit: or IF it's resolved out of game, I would like logical reasoning that his character shouldn't be the way it is, because from what I can tell, Vengeance Paladins can do all this and more regardless of what I think is the "spirit" of a Paladin.

 

[dmnqwk]

I've been watching the tv show Scorpions and I think the lead character there, Walter O'Brien, is an excellent example of this type of Paladin behaviour.

His view of "the greater good" is that his friends, co-workers and even random people can be sacrificed to ensure world safety. He would rather risk his own life, given a choice, than someone elses but ultimately he will force a friend to risk their life to get the job done.

Those around him are constantly at odds with him over this behaviour - in the tv show it revolves around a perceived lack of emotion but Walter is both Lawful, and Good, in his motives and is constantly fighting with everyone around him to try and get what he perceives as "the greater good"

Moving it back to the Vengeance Paladin focus, don't think "the greater good" is an excuse to be a dick, because it's not. It's simply the fact your sense of morality is strained when you must choose between sacrificing yourself or your friends to save others. As an example, imagine the following scenario:

A Paladin's group are facing off against a Beholder who has knocked one member down to 0 and they are on 2 death saving throw failures. The beholder is trying to make a run for it and only the paladin is capable of reaching both the injured foe and the beholder. A Vengeance Paladin is more likely to let his friend die to prevent the paladin from escaping, knowing how much damage the beholder would do in the future. His friend is not dead directly as a result of his actions but he basically left his comrade to flip a coin to ensure the beholder cannot kill anyone else.

 

[Madeiner]

Madeiner, just stop.

I'm looking for ways to penalize a character who claims to be good for committing evil acts in an otherwise good natured party and setting. I'm not going to strip his character away from him.

If you are penalizing the character only, then go with natural consequences for his action.
Just because HE thinks he's good, doesn't mean the rest of the world is ok with it.

However, be prepared for possible backlashes. What if people come for him to answer his crimes, and he decides to step up instead of stepping down?
You need to be prepared if he kills the white knights or people accusing him.
If it happens, things might escalate to the point that he cannot continue adventuring with the current group, and he might lose the character all the same.
Ask yourself: if zealous paladins come to him and demand justice, what is he realistically going to do? Since he's basically evil already, i predict good chances of him saying "you are preventing me to bring justice and purity to the world, you must die!"
Can the game/character go on if it went to that, and would you be okay with it?

Also, dont go oveboard with consequences:
If your white knights that come for him are impossible to defeat in combat, then this is just a passive-aggressive way of saying "i don't want you playing that".
Eventually he should realize that he's making his life impossible and he has become a villain because he gradually becomes too famous for what he's doing and too many people will be looking for him, but let this come as a natural part of the world reacting to him, and dont let him think "the DM sent me 3 archangels to smite me/geas me/kill me if i don't do what they say", because you might alienate the player (and would just be a very immature thing to do)

Edit: or IF it's resolved out of game, I would like logical reasoning that his character shouldn't be the way it is, because from what I can tell, Vengeance Paladins can do all this and more regardless of what I think is the "spirit" of a Paladin.

Logically, i believe there's only two possibilities
1) The paladin is meant to possibly be evil. You decide you are not okay with it. You ask to change or step down a little, not because the rules say so, but because of the social contract binding you, and if there's 4+ people not having fun, maybe a compromise might be reached.
2) The paladin is NOT meant to be evil, and he's breaking some code/class features. You point the page of the PHB that says that, and note that he might lose his powers mechanically.

I believe there is not a rule that supports #2 unlike in older editions, but i haven't got the PHB in front of me.
I also believe the spirit of the paladin of vengeance, as you say, is to be a dark knight, not a psychopath.
However, you cannot logically prove that, other than to explain your vision and try to reach a gentleman's agreement.

Edit: upon further analysis, and re-reading the base paladin description, i now strongly believe paladins are not intended to behave like that. There are no hard rules about falling anymore, that's up to you to decide.
He might be thinking otherwise, though. If you are okay with him continuing with his actions, you might want to ask what his intentions are, and if he realizes he's not acting as a paladin.

It might be a conscious decision, depending on the player. Maybe he's trying to craft the story of his fall, of his spiral into darkness. I've done that before (but i warned the DM beforehand)