D&D 5E Oath of Vengeance Paladin?

[Mephista]

I feel like the tenets "Fight the greater evil" and "By any means necessary" give a lot of freedom for the paladin to do extremely heinous things that are completely unsuitable for a paladin.

The typical LG paladin is the Oath of Devotion cavalier. Don't mistake the Ancient, Vengence, and Crown Oaths for the same thing. And, yes, the Avenger can even be LE (devils, after all, fight demons, and its very easy to call them the greater evil). That's a feature, not a bug.

Furthermore, even if they act completely evil, forcing them to be an "Oathbreaker" doesn't even make much sense since they aren't breaking their oath to do things like torture for the greater good... and it's hardly a punishment since it's Oathbreaker has so many benefits itself.

There's a difference between Oathbreaker, and a fallen paladin that's not all fiendish. The Oathreaker is similar to being a Death Knight, basically. A fallen paladin just has abilities stripped away.

In a game I ran recently, a paladin in the group went Oath of Vengeance and declared alcohol to be the greatest threat to humanity after seeing so many bar fights, abuses in families, etc, which all had alcohol in common. He went on a quest to abolish alcohol by any means necessary. During his adventures he would torture people or even use a Philter of Love to force someone to be obsessed with him for even the most vague information he could (like for information about a magic item that he rationalized MIGHT assist him in ridding the world of alcohol).

Sounds like a problem player being an issue, and not a class problem. Honestly, you're looking at a way to argue about your interpretations of the class. And that does NOT end well. Players are allowed to envision their characters their own way. If its an out of character problem, should be solved out of character. Taking OOC issues into IC is a bad move for a DM or player.

Frankly, torture is an icky situation in the first place, let alone very much not a solution to any problem. Let alone alcohol. I fail to see how the two are related, since it just drives drinking into hidden areas until the crazy torturer leaves. Let alone the laws he breaks and inviting punishment from mercs or authorities. If you absolutely insist on keeping it IC, then just put a bounty out or arrest him.

Some people seem to think that playing an evil character is a license to be all about dumb evil that does stuff because its funny to them. Its possible you're dealing with that.

I have a view of Paladins as they are described as being the archetypal heroic knights in shining armor so this does NOT sit right with me but Oath of Vengeance seems to permit some ridiculous things without penalty.

This is only true for the Oath of Devotion, and maybe the Crown oath. The stereotypical warlock is fiendish, but we have goodly Fey and "Undying Light" as Patrons, for a good aligned warlock. Sorcerer includes Favored Souls, which is far and away NOT an arcane caster like the dragon bloodlines, but rather a divine caster. We have assassin-monks, we have swashbuckling and warlord rogues, we have bards that get away with no use of music. Don't mistake the umbrella class for their old archetypes - subclasses change everything.

I'm not quite sure as a DM how to reign that in while giving him freedom to have his character because it made the rest of the neutral/good party members extremely uncomfortable.

Flat out tell him that its making the rest uncomfortable, and they want him to stop. If its a disruptive character, then leave him behind. That's all there is to it. If the group doesn't want him, then don't.

 

[CyanideSprite]

I'm saying it's making the player's CHARACTERS uncomfortable and so it creates a lot of conflict among the party's characters even if they're on a quest together. THAT can usually be solved in game through means of introducing a common foe/immediate threat, distancing the party from the things that cause the rift etc... But for OoV Paladins like this where he is single-mindedly focused on abolishing this greater evil, it's going to come back time and time again unless there is a means of reigning in these kind of actions.

Where are the rules for fallen paladin you're speaking of? All I can find are Oathbreaker.

 

[Mephista]

I'm looking for ways to penalize a character who claims to be good for committing evil acts in an otherwise good natured party and setting. I'm not going to strip his character away from him.

Frankly, looking to "penalize" a character is something I think is problematic on the part of the DM. If the character is acting LOL EVULZ because I can, then go ahead and do the natural consequence of having him arrested for his crimes against the races.

Edit: or IF it's resolved out of game, I would like logical reasoning that his character shouldn't be the way it is, because from what I can tell, Vengeance Paladins can do all this and more regardless of what I think is the "spirit" of a Paladin.

Simple. Drinking alcohol isn't an evil. Hells, in some parts of the real world, alcohol is safer to drink than water. In a fantasy world, its a major part of several cultures, including dwarven. Vengence paladins are all about serving Justice.

"The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin." The abuse is the sin. The fighting is the sin. The alcohol is not. There are plenty of non-abusive examples. Having a drink or so and being tortured for nothing more than that is blindingly obviously not something that's evil on the drinker's part.

Even if you can lawyer-twist words to allow it.... "Fight the Greater Evil. Faeed with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose thegreater evil." The character should be inside a major city lobbying for laws against alcohol, or closing down taverns, not adventuring. This is frankly a dumb reason to have on an adventurer, because they'd never have a reason to fight, oh, I don't know, the dragon destroying everything around you, since you're forced to care more about the old man enjoying a pint before going home from work.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I feel like the tenets "Fight the greater evil" and "By any means necessary" give a lot of freedom for the paladin to do extremely heinous things that are completely unsuitable for a paladin. Furthermore, even if they act completely evil, forcing them to be an "Oathbreaker" doesn't even make much sense since they aren't breaking their oath to do things like torture for the greater good... and it's hardly a punishment since it's Oathbreaker has so many benefits itself.

In a game I ran recently, a paladin in the group went Oath of Vengeance and declared alcohol to be the greatest threat to humanity after seeing so many bar fights, abuses in families, etc, which all had alcohol in common. He went on a quest to abolish alcohol by any means necessary. During his adventures he would torture people or even use a Philter of Love to force someone to be obsessed with him for even the most vague information he could (like for information about a magic item that he rationalized MIGHT assist him in ridding the world of alcohol).

I have a view of Paladins as they are described as being the archetypal heroic knights in shining armor so this does NOT sit right with me but Oath of Vengeance seems to permit some ridiculous things without penalty. I'm not quite sure as a DM how to reign that in while giving him freedom to have his character because it made the rest of the neutral/good party members extremely uncomfortable.

I find the banhammer works best with vengeance paladins. Or at least slap an NPC label on them. In my view, if you take the tenets to their logical conclusion, the vengeance paladin will inevitably get himself or his party killed. And seeing as the oath is what makes the paladin, it is not something that should be swept aside/ignored.

 

[Mephista]

Where are the rules for fallen paladin you're speaking of? All I can find are Oathbreaker.

Side bar in the DMG. An Oathbreaker is a type of fallen paladin - not all of fallen become an Oathbreaker, some just lose their paladin-powers.

 

[CyanideSprite]

Frankly, looking to "penalize" a character is something I think is problematic on the part of the DM. If the character is acting LOL EVULZ because I can, then go ahead and do the natural consequence of having him arrested for his crimes against the races.

Simple. Drinking alcohol isn't an evil. Hells, in some parts of the real world, alcohol is safer to drink than water. In a fantasy world, its a major part of several cultures, including dwarven. Vengence paladins are all about serving Justice. Having a drink or so and being tortured for nothing more than that is blindingly obviously not something that's evil on the drinker's part.

No it's not problematic on the part of the DM. Penalizing a character for acting out of their alignment has been around for a long time in D&D but there seems to be less tools than ever to do that now.

You guys seem to think I'm looking to punish the player and not the player's character. That's not it. It's the Oath of Vengeance Paladin I'm having a problem with. It comes across as a license to do anything and still claim to be "righteous".

And his CHARACTER believes alcohol is evil and has his reasons. The player doesn't. I don't need to convince him alcohol isn't evil...

 

[CyanideSprite]

Side bar in the DMG. An Oathbreaker is a type of fallen paladin - not all of fallen become an Oathbreaker, some just lose their paladin-powers.

Have a page number? I can't find that side bar. At most I can find the one where I can just force him to drop his class and take up another or become an Oathbreaker. Dropping his class and taking up another is basically just rolling a new character and I'd rather avoid that if possible. For him to be an Oathbreaker he would have to drink alcohol willingly or something and it still doesn't make much sense. If there's a fallen paladin option or something which imposes penalties for acting straight evil, that would be perfect.

 

[abirdcall]

I should have also said, please don't come in here and say interpretations of the Oath of Vengeance "depend on the dm/game/setting/etc"... Yes. We know. It always does. But there wouldn't be a game without common rules and this is something that should be debated because it expressly goes against the identity that Paladins have held from the beginning.

There shouldn't have to be a reason to talk to a player outside the campaign for this issue.

This is easy then.

Stop applying rules from different games to the game you are currently playing.

 

[Madeiner]

No it's not problematic on the part of the DM. Penalizing a character for acting out of their alignment has been around for a long time in D&D but there seems to be less tools than ever to do that now.

You guys seem to think I'm looking to punish the player and not the player's character. That's not it.

Then the problem is MUCH less severe and easier to handle.
A few ideas:

- have some npc make him realize how he's ignoring the greater evil in order to pursue a smaller one. Make him realize that he's following a quest that is creating at least as much discomfort as he's preventing.
- if he tries to go the legal way and changing the nation's laws, have the ruler be horrified at him torturing people for alchool, as he believes that drinking, even if a crime, does not merit this kind of judgement.
- have his powers falter from time to time. "You want to smite that demon, but all you can think of right now is that guy that was beating his wife because he drank too much. You smite the demon, but purple/black energy comes from your blade, and not a glowing light. You feel the darker energies through you, feeding upon your hate. The demon sees you struggling, and whispers "good... you are becoming like me...""
- draw inspiration from Anakin from Star Wars. He's a good jedi, right? But he's going down a dark path. Striking innocent people, losing his friends, then attacking his master. Maybe have a former master find him torturing people and go all "this isn't what i thought you" and attack him. Maybe have something else happen while the confrontation is ongoing, and the master dies because of something the paladin does.

 

[Mephista]

No it's not problematic on the part of the DM. Penalizing a character for acting out of their alignment has been around for a long time in D&D but there seems to be less tools than ever to do that now.

1) Alignment restrictions are gone. 2) Penalizing a character OR player is wrong. The point of the game is to make STORIES. Throwing penalties on a character because they don't meet your ideal is a bad attitude to have. There's a reason such tools don't exist - because they were a bad idea in the first place.

It's the Oath of Vengeance Paladin I'm having a problem with. It comes across as a license to do anything and still claim to be "righteous".

Hardly. Its clear that the avenger is designed to seek out vengence against specific things that you can fight against. Allowing alcohol is frankly something that makes no sense

Even if you can lawyer-twist words to allow alcohol as a valid enemy to fight when the implication is that its something you can have revenge on and defeat.... "Fight the Greater Evil. Faeed with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil." The character should be inside a major city lobbying for laws against alcohol, or closing down taverns, not adventuring. This is frankly a dumb reason to have on an adventurer, because they'd never have a reason to fight, oh, I don't know, the dragon destroying everything around you, since you're forced to care more about the old man enjoying a pint before going home from work.

This entire thing doesn't make sense.