Fury over Black Hermione Granger

[Kramodlog]

He's a non-violent Batman

It's better than the virtually incomprehensible growl that Bale affected.

*bat-gasp*

 

[Morrus]

To summon an analogy from late night TV, saying 'All Lives Matter' should replace 'Black Lives Matter' is akin to saying 'All legs should be mended' instead of 'My leg should be mended' when I have a broken leg. Yes, all legs should be mended, but at this moment in time, mine is the one that is broken.

Yes, all lives are important, but at this moment in time, black lives are the ones in more peril.

Yeah. "Black Lives Matter" is a slogan which is short for "black lives matter just as much as white lives, so please stop shooting black people". It is not short for "Only black lives matter". A good way to explain it is to say that the phrase means "Black lives matter too".

 

[Mallus]

I'm going to try to keep politics out of this, as much as possible, so forgive/bear with me...

No one has any respect for these creations and instead turn characters into tools for pandering to certain groups for profit.

Why do you assume it's pandering, and not just artistic reinterpretation? Re-interpretations occur all the time, across many different media (not just media in the nerd-o-sphere). As does alternate & interesting casting.

For example, in the world of opera, no-one gives a rat's ass about the race of the singers. I saw an Opera Deleware performance of Turandot (a Chinese character originally performed by Italian singers) with a Black American soprano in the lead role. Now opera fans can be as obsessive & persnickety as any comic-book nerd, and they love their favorite characters. But race is a total non-issue in this fandom (at this point in history).

So because someone gets butt-hurt and feels left out, I have to watch a character that I've possibly grown up with, get mutated into something so far from what I grew to love.

Let's switch to nerd-dom. Like a lot of people, I grew up with the character of The Batman. My first exposure was Adam West as Batman in the 1960s Pop-Art children's show. Followed by Miller's comics in high school/college, including his own revisionist "The Dark Knight Returns", then Keaton's Batman in Burton's pop-Gothic films, then later gravel-voiced Bale in Nolan's trilogy (which starts fairly realistic and ends up being a weird political/psychological opera by the last film), and Grant Morrison's take on the Bat-universe in comics.

Tell me all those different versions of the Batman don't qualify as "mutation". How is making Batman, say, black, more of a change than the difference between West's Batman and Bale's? I'd really like to know.

edit: forget Dini's excellent Batman cartoon, which was also technically a children's show, but was completely different in terms of tone & subject matter than the live-action 1960s show.

But hey, it's okay as long as we're taking away from white people and not from someone else, otherwise that would be racist.

How is anything, at all, being taken away from you? Can you explain that?

A new version of an existing character doesn't erase all the previous versions & your experience/memories of them. A black James Bond wouldn't change the 24 prior Bond films where he's white. The PC Police won't raid your home and confiscate your DVD/Blu-ray collection. The One World Government won't fire pink space lasers into your brain and zap out your cherished recollections of Sean Connery, George Lazenby, David Niven (and sort-of Woody Allen), Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Piece Brosnan, and Daniel Craig. Hmmm.. that's a lot of different takes on Bond, even when's he all-white.

Not to mention side characters like Felix Leiter, who went from white to black to white again (but always CIA), and M. who was an old British man before she was an old British lady.

Notice also that NBC's recent, and super-successful live version of the all-black Wizard of Oz musical didn't cause the original film version to disintegrate, or all the print versions of Frank L. Baum's books to spontaneously burst into flame.

So... "taking away"... can you go into more detail?

You sound like you're claiming ownership of things you do not and cannot own. While ignoring the frequent, on-going re-interpretation of existing characters that happens outside of race/gender/orientation.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Whether it's true or not is not the point. The point is that when one group does it it's seen as acceptable, however when white people do it it's seen as racist.

The way you're presenting it, you're only doing it because some other group "gets away with it," not because there is any truth in what you're saying. Seems disingenuous.

As soon as the movies casted a white actress as Hermione, they pretty much established her as a white character as far as the public is concerned because that exposure reaches more people than the books probably will. There are tons of people who never read the books that have seen the movies. This is an unfortunate truth.

No, they've just cast a White actress. That doesn't change anything in the books. The books being the source material, matter a bit more in establishing character traits. Look at Wolverine in the movies. He is played by Hugh Jackman, a guy that stands 6'2". Wolverine in the comics is a short little guy, standing at 5'3". You might like the Jackman Wolverine, and you might feel that it establishes Wolverine as being 6'2", but it doesn't. In the same way, the casting director chose Emma Watson to be Hermione. She happens to be White. Rowling has said that in te books she doesn't indicate a race for Hermione. Who are you going to go with? The guys that interpreted the books to make a movie, or the author of the books and the creator of the character?

As far as establishing "something" as white, this is a big no no. You cannot have White Entertainment TV.

I'm surious, wha would "White entertainment" have as content?

You cannot have White Lives Matter.

Sure you can. The issue isn't if you can have it, but why you're having it. Is there a sudden increase in police shooting of white people? If you think there is, start p the movement.

You cannot have White history month.

Why would you need a month when you have all of U.S. history dedicated to showing White history? That's just short-changing yourself. But let's pretend that you were going to have a White history month. What would you present as "White history?"

You cannot have White only colleges.

All colleges used to be "White only." And contrary to what you may believe, Black colleges allow White students, or non-Black students to attend as well. Why would you want to have a "Whites only" college, anyway?

Because society has deemed that racist, due to reverse racism and double standards.

No, it's deemed racist because of what people pushing for those things have done in the past. When I say the past, I don't just mean a couple hundred years ago. I mean the recent past.

The moment someone claims "White Pride" they are instantly slammed and labeled a racist,

Have you seen the groups that claim "White pride?"

yet on the other hand an African American can claim "Black Pride" and it's seen as being a positive and good thing. "I am proud to be (anything but white, insert here)" is praised whereas it's deemed racist if applied to being white.

It may have to do with what these groups are proud of as compared to the groups that claim "White pride." You're either missing it or ignoring it, but the reasons that these groups claim pride are different. Their purposes are different. Their beliefs are different.
I'll assume that you're white. I'll also assume that you are proud of being White. I'll make a third assumption and say you don't belong to a KKK group or share their beliefs. Do you often proclaim your "White pride?" Let's assume that you do. Would you do it for the same reasons as members of the KKK? Would you have the same beliefs as members of he KKK?

My post wasn't really just about Hermione, but the sudden influx of these situations that are being caused by politic correctness and people trying to walk on eggshells to not offend anyone.

That's an interesting assumption you're making. What makes you believe that the change was made for political correctness? Couldn't there be other reasons, such as the black actor being the best actor to audition for the part? I'd like to think that's also why Emma Watson was cast as Hermione in the first place. She wasn't the only child auditioning that had a similar look. She just happened to be a good actor and got the part.

Is her race important to the story? This is obviously up to the reader/viewer to determine. People relate on different levels to different characters.

You're a reader... or at least a viewer of the movies. Is her race important to the story?

Regardless, if the general mindset is that "her race shouldn't matter", then why change it once it's been established?

Again, you're assuming it was established when Rowling has said it wasn't. You may want her to be White, but hat doesn't make her White. You may be accustomed to her being White because of the first actress to play her, but hat doesn't establish her as being White, either.

This isn't just about Hermione when I say this. This applies to any other popular, established characters, etc. If race doesn't matter then why do people feel the need to constantly try to change it? The reason is because it does matter, because it's a strong platform for people to relate to. People gravitate towards those that are similar to them.

I'm not sure people "feel the need" to change it, mush less "constantly" change it. Some characters have their race, gender, etc. changed so the writers can tell a different story. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with changing a characteristic of a made up character to tell a different story? What is it about made up characters that somehow, changing some aspect of theirs, is an assault on you on a cultural level? Is Hermione really that culturally significant to White people? Is Thor really that culturally significant to men? It comes off as a ridiculous reaction when people take it as such.

Companies constantly keep trying to pander to minorities in order to tap into that market.

Companies pander to all groups to try and make money. It sounds as if you have a problem with capitalism.

Racism does exist. Most people in some shape or form, no matter how small it is, could be considered racist to some small degree. It's unavoidable. People have preferences. If I was to say "I'm only attracted to Hispanic women." someone under todays mindset could say that's racist. "I don't like Chinese food." omg he must be racist!! If all my friends happen to be the same race as me, someone might think I'm racist.

You know "Hispanic" isn't a race, right?

Racism on a grand scale I don't believe exists. There is no huge conspiracy that the world has agreed upon in order to hold down a certain skin color. I don't have a monthly meeting with the great white council to determine how we're going to mess with ____ people this month. Some people though truly believe that whitey is out to get them.

So you don't believe that there is, or ever was, institutionalized racism?

It implies that racism isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

Really? Well, that's certainly an interesting take on it.

If racism was truly an issue then minorities would not be allowed to do ANYTHING that would allow them to maintain a better position or way of life over say a white person. Any time I see some idiot who makes millions of dollars and then try to say white people have some magic privilege or that white people try to hold them down, it makes me lose all faith in humanity. I'm looking at you, Kanye West...

So you think that Kanye hasn't had to deal with any racism? Or is it that you believe that even though he did have to deal with racism, it wasn't "as bad" because it didn't stop him from getting to where he is at? Do you think he may encounter racism in his life at all?

Growing up where I did, I encountered racism towards me for simply being white. Despite the fact that I lived in the EXACT SAME conditions as those people and went to the same exact schools and stores and had the same hardships, they still thought I was somehow magically privileged because I was white. Fortunately for me, it didn't bother me. I chalked it up to ignorance and did my own thing. I worked for what I wanted and didn't make excuses.

You may not realize it, but you did have certain advantages or at least less disadvantages by not being black. That you don't recognize it does not mean it isn't happening, though.

Every time I hear him refer to his race all I ever hear is him referring to himself as a black man or person of color. He seldom if ever references his white side, unless he's trying to pander to some white people. It's socially more acceptable if he finds pride in only being black, rather than bi-racial. He pretty much disowns any notion of being white unless it suits him in a specific situation.

Could you go further into this?

All of those are great examples of how little racism is impacting peoples ability to have a good and productive life. If REAL racism was running rampant then those people wouldn't even have the CHANCE to do any of those things.

"real" racism? How does that differ from fake racism? What is "real" racism?

If you ask an African American who makes millions of dollars making movies or playing sports and then ask a poor black man living in the ghetto about racism, their responses will probably be different. The poor man will probably blame other people for his misfortune, play the race card, and tell us how much whitey wants to hold him down. The rich person will likely talk about how they made the decision to better their life and not let anyone "hold them down" and actively sought to improve themselves.

You really believe that?

 

[Kramodlog]

Racism does exist. Most people in some shape or form, no matter how small it is, could be considered racist to some small degree. It's unavoidable. People have preferences. If I was to say "I'm only attracted to Hispanic women." someone under todays mindset could say that's racist. "I don't like Chinese food." omg he must be racist!! If all my friends happen to be the same race as me, someone might think I'm racist.

Racism on a grand scale I don't believe exists. There is no huge conspiracy that the world has agreed upon in order to hold down a certain skin color. I don't have a monthly meeting with the great white council to determine how we're going to mess with ____ people this month. Some people though truly believe that whitey is out to get them.

There is no need for a conspiracy or organisation for racism on a large scale to happen. As you say in the first paragraphe individuals have prejudices. Those prejudices can have some impacts on how some institutions are run, like the legal system. There is no need for a klan meeting for the police, procecutors, judges and juries to be harder on black people. They just need to think black people are predisposed to violence and criminality and need the tough discipline of an authority figure to straighten them out.

Of course, with that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought the justice system needs to be harder on black people because you think they are predisposed to violence and crime and need tough discipline, so for you there isn't any institutional racism in the justice system.

 

[Mallus]

And another thing...

Fans of nerdy media are always clamoring for respect. "The things we love are art. They (and we) deserve respect".

Now that's happening. One of the ways it's happening is nerdy media are being treated just like things like Shakespeare and opera: new versions of old works are being wildly reinterpreted and recast and remixed, etc. So you got you wish. Quit yer complaining.

Or are Batman & Bond & Hermione Granger somehow more sacrosanct than Hamlet?

 

[Neonchameleon]

The truth of the matter is that reverse racism is a bigger problem than the perceived presence of racism from whites. I'm to be held accountable for the actions of some white people from hundreds of years ago, that I have no connection to. I'm supposed to feel some kind of "white guilt" because people claim they're still "second class" citizens. Tons of minorities immigrated here and have been hugely successful. My wifes family came here from Mexico and have been successful. We have a black president. We have people of color making a hell of a lot more money than I do in multiple industries.

If you want to see racism in action, look at the killing of Tamir Rice. A boy playing with a toy gun in a state that allows open carry. Shot down by police on camera in probably less time than it took you to read this sentence. The policeman who gunned down an unarmed boy without checking ... anything will not face criminal charges. And then there's Eric Garner. Killed by the police possibly while selling loose cigarettes and although the coroner found homicide, the Grand Jury decided not to indict (despite the fact a prosecuter can reputedly get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich).

On the other hand when you look at a white mass murderer then normally either as in the case of Adam Lanza at Sandy Hook they killed themselves or as in the case of Robert Lewis Dear Jr. at Planned Parenthood Colorado they survived and were taken in.

And yet despite this sort of thing being caught on camera some people are claiming that reverse racism is more of a problem than racism. Because their hurt feelings are more of a problem than people getting killed. Right.

Protesting through further racism doesn't give them a pass. Black lives matter should have been named All Lives Matter. That would have included the black lives.

Nope. Black Lives Matter was called Black Lives Matter because it was and is black people being gunned down by police. Almost no one disuputes that White Lives Matter in America. But when the police gun down a twelve year old with a toy gun it is in doubt whether Black Lives Matter in America.

Right, and she then ignores that she explicitly calls students who are black or asian out in writing as black or asian. She is being very disingenuous when she says that because she didn't call out that Hermione was white, that the race wasn't established.

Two sentences and two mistakes.

First mistake. Counterexample: Blaize Zabini. Blaize was mentioned in the sorting hat scene in Philosopher's Stone. It was only in the Half Blood Prince that it was mentioned whether he was male, and his skin colour (black). For more than five books his skin colour and his gender wasn't called out.

Second mistake - you're putting words into her mouth. All she said was that she liked black Hermione.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

FWIW, the shooting of John Crawford in an Ohio Wal-Mart would be a better example of an unjustified shooting.

For other examples of racism in America, see also redlining, the continued existence of sundown towns, employment practice cases, etc.

Things are better for me than for my parents or grandparents, but despite improvements, there is still work to be done.

 

[Neonchameleon]

FWIW, the shooting of John Crawford in an Ohio Wal-Mart would be a better example of an unjustified shooting.

The one where someone picked up a toy gun in a Wall-Mart and was gunned down by the police while he was on his phone? In an Open Carry state? Yeah, that was pretty blatant as well.

The Grand Jury did not, of course, indict. Why would they? It's only as if 11/162,300 Federal Grand Juries in 2011 didn't indict. Grand Juries almost always indict when the proseductor wants them to. But the prosecutor normally doesn't want to indict cops. Talking local Grand Juries, 288 non-indictions in a row in Huston for police officers.

For other examples of racism in America, see also redlining, the continued existence of sundown towns, employment practice cases, etc.

Things are better for me than for my parents or grandparents, but despite improvements, there is still work to be done.

All too true. I was just showing the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Valador]

My lunch break isn't long enough to properly respond to everything above, but I'll try my best to give a proper response tonight when I'm home. In the mean time, I have a question.

If the white man suddenly vanished from the world, would all of the current minorities problems be solved? I only ask because apparently whitey is the devil in everyones eyes.