Dragonborn in Faerun

[doctorbadwolf]

I keep seeing the sentiment that dragonborn in FR are "aliens", and while technichally true...so are shadar-kai and gith and other mortals from other planes. The way DB came to FR isn't any different. It's not like they came in spaceships. They were transported by a cosmic magical event. Gith are more like aliens than DB, honestly.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't understand the idea that if players tend to pick something, it can't also be rare in the game world.

I play mostly force users in my buddy's star wars campaigns, which are set during the rebellion era. Force users are extremely rare in those campaigns. The fact that I usually play one, or the fact that in some of those campaigns we have a group with 2 or more force users, does not in any way change the fact that they are rare. We just happen to be playing the vanishingly few force users there are.

There is no reason that good drow, civilized orcs, or any other options described as rare shouldn't work the same. or spellfire, for that matter.

Sure, it's rare. And ted likes to play that specific very rare character a lot. Ok. So ted plays a thing that is rare. What is the issue?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

As someone who is a bit ambivalent on DB in general, my hypothesis is that the issue is principally one of aesthetics. DB didn't necessarily "fit" with what people saw D&D as. There's a lot of D&D out there that is heavily reliant on Tolkeinesque imagery or with the "Mundane + Magic" assumptions that see even dwarves, elves, and halflings as strange beings rarely seen by others.

For me it's the appearance is a big part. And yes, my campaign is very Tolkienesque in regards to the general look and feel. It's also because of the ramifications that come with the appearance. But it's also an issue with the cultural aspects that I've noted before, and my dislike of using the Returned Abeir storyline. I don't care about the extra abilities at all, that's fine.

I keep seeing the sentiment that dragonborn in FR are "aliens", and while technichally true...so are shadar-kai and gith and other mortals from other planes. The way DB came to FR isn't any different. It's not like they came in spaceships. They were transported by a cosmic magical event. Gith are more like aliens than DB, honestly.

The elves, dwarves, orcs, and a great many other races are aliens to the Forgotten Realms. I don't have a problem with them being aliens. My problem is first, the story element that put them there, and second the ramifications of dropping an entire society of a culturally advanced race in the Realms. An event like that would have extremely significant ramifications, initially locally, and then expanding from there. Imagine that there's an alternate earth, populated by other intelligent races, and then drop an entire large country of us. We would have a huge impact on the world, and most likely not an entirely good one.

We have a historical precedent in the European settlement of North and South America. In my opinion, a culture as different, as regimented, and well established ex-slaves would not be a non-event. And I don't want the future of my campaign going in that direction.

I don't understand the idea that if players tend to pick something, it can't also be rare in the game world.

I play mostly force users in my buddy's star wars campaigns, which are set during the rebellion era. Force users are extremely rare in those campaigns. The fact that I usually play one, or the fact that in some of those campaigns we have a group with 2 or more force users, does not in any way change the fact that they are rare. We just happen to be playing the vanishingly few force users there are.

There is no reason that good drow, civilized orcs, or any other options described as rare shouldn't work the same. or spellfire, for that matter.

Sure, it's rare. And ted likes to play that specific very rare character a lot. Ok. So ted plays a thing that is rare. What is the issue?

The rarity doesn't bother me. I've had a player with a character using spellfire in my campaign. The issue is that if it's the only Dragonborn that's been seen, or maybe one or two more, then every trip to civilization becomes one centered around the lizard guy, and everything that entails. Sure, it can be an interesting story element. But either it constantly becomes a thing, or you ignore it, in which case being a 7' tall guy that resembles a dragon is kind of pointless.

Ilbranteloth

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For me it's the appearance is a big part. And yes, my campaign is very Tolkienesque in regards to the general look and feel. It's also because of the ramifications that come with the appearance. But it's also an issue with the cultural aspects that I've noted before, and my dislike of using the Returned Abeir storyline. I don't care about the extra abilities at all, that's fine.



The elves, dwarves, orcs, and a great many other races are aliens to the Forgotten Realms. I don't have a problem with them being aliens. My problem is first, the story element that put them there, and second the ramifications of dropping an entire society of a culturally advanced race in the Realms. An event like that would have extremely significant ramifications, initially locally, and then expanding from there. Imagine that there's an alternate earth, populated by other intelligent races, and then drop an entire large country of us. We would have a huge impact on the world, and most likely not an entirely good one.

We have a historical precedent in the European settlement of North and South America. In my opinion, a culture as different, as regimented, and well established ex-slaves would not be a non-event. And I don't want the future of my campaign going in that direction.



The rarity doesn't bother me. I've had a player with a character using spellfire in my campaign. The issue is that if it's the only Dragonborn that's been seen, or maybe one or two more, then every trip to civilization becomes one centered around the lizard guy, and everything that entails. Sure, it can be an interesting story element. But either it constantly becomes a thing, or you ignore it, in which case being a 7' tall guy that resembles a dragon is kind of pointless.

Ilbranteloth

I guess I can see where you're coming from, but a lot of this just confuses me.

First, why not just...not have your campaign go in "that" direction, whatever direction that is. Like, there's no real reason to assume Dragonborn are going to start invading people, or immediately get invaded (since everyone by the time everyone isn't reeling from the spellplague, Tymanther is up and running and ready to defend itself if needed), or interact with the world in any given specific way. That's up to you.

Second, so lot's of players playing a thing that's supposed to be rare doesn't bother you? Did I read your other post wildly wrong? I'm not being facitious, I just don't understand what your actual stance/issue is, now.

That being said, I don't think the idea, in 4e or 5e FR, is that Dragonborn are so rare that people haven't seen a few. I may be wrong in teh case of 5e, but that is still something you can determine for your campaign, either way.

If they are rare, that's fine, they can be a big deal, or not. If they aren't, that works too. Neither needs to turn every trip to civilation into a "look at the lizard guy", and whatever you've decided that "entails". I'm curius what that entails, for you? Because in my campaigns it entails...that race is reptilian, and that's about it. Like, it just isn't an issue outside of the same racist NPCs that fetishize gnomes and call halflings "rats".
I mean, they don't look like lizardmen, and no one is going to confuse them for one even if they've never seen either, because the dragonborn is wearing well clothes and speaking Chondathan. FR is full of weird stuff, some of which is bad, some good, most in between, and every single person in FR knows that fact. I can't imagine that seeing a race you haven't seen before, as a denizen of whatever Sword Coast farming town you can think of, is a source of shock, confusion, or even fear. Caution? Sure.
But a dragonborn in nice clothes, polished armor, speaking the same language as you, with a yarting on her back and eagerly greating people and asking where she can get some ale and a bath, is probably less cause for concern than a Uthgardt human in furs and face paint, glaring suspiciously at everything.

As for common Dragonborn, I don't think most people want to play DB purely for the novelty, so I'm not sure how not being stared at in varying levels of terror and confusion means that playing one becomes pointless. Like...playing a 7' tall dragonic humanoid is an appealing thing (or not) in itself, not because it's novel.

So, the idea that it "either it constantly becomes a thing, or you ignore it" seems like it might just be a you thing, not a dragonborn thing. Which I get, but that's the game.
I think halflings are a stupid race, and FR would be better if you replaced every halfling with a gnome, because gnomes do or can do everything halflings do, without being boring and redundant. But I know other people like them, so I deal, and recognize that it's mostly my hangup.

and don't get me started on all the elves and dwarves that honestly could just be elves and dwarves. Not to mention, why are there so many kingdoms of humans and each race gets like, one, at most? Seriously, I've heard or read all the excuses, but it's a forced thing, and it's always bugged me.

Now, all that being said, I'm not sure why they couldn't have come from one of the far off continents, with more details on those places, instead of the whole spellplague thing. I'm just saying, they don't need to be a big deal when they walk into town, any more than a human from a far off land, if that.

and I can't speak for your players, but mine have always wanted to play dragon people that weren't broken, didn't have level adjustments, could be played from level one, and weren't drizzt-y "this whole race is monsters, except you. and ted. everyone loves ted." it's not, for them, a matter of wanting to play it because it's in the book, but rather being glad that it's in the book, and balanced and official, so they finally get to play it.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I guess I can see where you're coming from, but a lot of this just confuses me.

First, why not just...not have your campaign go in "that" direction, whatever direction that is. Like, there's no real reason to assume Dragonborn are going to start invading people, or immediately get invaded (since everyone by the time everyone isn't reeling from the spellplague, Tymanther is up and running and ready to defend itself if needed), or interact with the world in any given specific way. That's up to you.

Second, so lot's of players playing a thing that's supposed to be rare doesn't bother you? Did I read your other post wildly wrong? I'm not being facitious, I just don't understand what your actual stance/issue is, now.

That being said, I don't think the idea, in 4e or 5e FR, is that Dragonborn are so rare that people haven't seen a few. I may be wrong in teh case of 5e, but that is still something you can determine for your campaign, either way.

If they are rare, that's fine, they can be a big deal, or not. If they aren't, that works too. Neither needs to turn every trip to civilation into a "look at the lizard guy", and whatever you've decided that "entails". I'm curius what that entails, for you? Because in my campaigns it entails...that race is reptilian, and that's about it. Like, it just isn't an issue outside of the same racist NPCs that fetishize gnomes and call halflings "rats".
I mean, they don't look like lizardmen, and no one is going to confuse them for one even if they've never seen either, because the dragonborn is wearing well clothes and speaking Chondathan. FR is full of weird stuff, some of which is bad, some good, most in between, and every single person in FR knows that fact. I can't imagine that seeing a race you haven't seen before, as a denizen of whatever Sword Coast farming town you can think of, is a source of shock, confusion, or even fear. Caution? Sure.
But a dragonborn in nice clothes, polished armor, speaking the same language as you, with a yarting on her back and eagerly greating people and asking where she can get some ale and a bath, is probably less cause for concern than a Uthgardt human in furs and face paint, glaring suspiciously at everything.

As for common Dragonborn, I don't think most people want to play DB purely for the novelty, so I'm not sure how not being stared at in varying levels of terror and confusion means that playing one becomes pointless. Like...playing a 7' tall dragonic humanoid is an appealing thing (or not) in itself, not because it's novel.

So, the idea that it "either it constantly becomes a thing, or you ignore it" seems like it might just be a you thing, not a dragonborn thing. Which I get, but that's the game.
I think halflings are a stupid race, and FR would be better if you replaced every halfling with a gnome, because gnomes do or can do everything halflings do, without being boring and redundant. But I know other people like them, so I deal, and recognize that it's mostly my hangup.

Well there's no doubt that it's a me thing...

In terms of lots of players playing things that are rare - yes I'd prefer that things be largely the norm. If the party was a drow, a duergar, a high elf, a minotaur, a dragonborn and a tiefling, that would bother me. That's not the norm in my world, and very unlikely to occur. But I don't want to negate the possibility of somebody playing something that's rare just because it's rare. It would depend partially on how we bring it into the campaign. Don't know if that makes sense or not.

My frame of reference for my campaigns is the real world coupled with Tolkien. So, humans, whose civilization has grown from primitive to civilized with help from the elves, dwarves, and halflings, view these races in much the same way people view other people in our world. Which means there is a wide variety with outright racists, to mostly acceptance. In most places it's largely acceptance, with stereotypes.

For the average Realmsfolk, anything outside that norm is generally cause for caution and suspicion. They've been attacked enough, by enough strange things, often masquerading as a friend, that they are generally quite wary. The larger the settlement, the more accepting they can be, and it's not always a hostile suspicion, but it's there. More unusual creatures or monstrous humanoids are dangerous than not, so the default is basically consider them dangerous. The most closely resemble dragons (dangerous), lizard folk (dangerous), yuan-ti (dangerous) which are also all races that would be considered largely acceptable to kill on sight.

In addition, if somebody became outright hostile towards one, they probably wouldn't suffer significant repercussions since there is nobody there to speak on behalf of the dragonborn.

I have yet to find something in the published material that supports they are common, other than a sentence here or there that might mention it. In the Neverwinter Campaign Setting I could only find reference to them in the random encounter tables, both the general and the one for the Cult of the Dragon. If they were seen as allied with the Cult of the Dragon, then the perception of them being dangerous goes up, and repercussions for engaging one in combat or killing one goes down.

I've already questioned the idea of them speaking the same language, because I don't think there would be much need for the majority of the race that doesn't have a specific need to communicate with anyone outside their homeland to learn other languages. In addition, their neighbors speak less common languages of the Realms natively.

I also think that a race that suddenly found themselves in a new world, suddenly free from slavery, not speaking the native language, with cultures vastly different than theirs, that has very strong ties to a regimented society and clan, would be very unlikely to be common outside of their homeland even 100 years later. What compelling reason is there for the race to start to Think of how long it took the Europeans to work their way across North America. It's roughly the same distance in a straight line from Unther to Waterdeep, but much longer by a land route. Now in Chessenta they find favorable reactions, why would they continue past there?

The fact that I don't like the Returned Abeir story means the dragonborn never would have arrived in the first place, which is a bigger hurdle.

This is entirely my interpretation, and an partial one at best. But the world that I enjoy is one where the characters and the players start with the mundane, everyday life of existence, and the magic of the world unfolds before them as they stray farther from home. Obviously, the mundane is very different for a farming village in the Shaar compared to somebody born in Waterdeep. Since I'm the one laying out the world, it helps if the world makes sense to me.

By no means am I saying that it's the way it has to be for everybody. And I certainly don't want to rain on anybody's parade. As I said before, when the situation has arisen I've worked to make it happen, but with some modifications that work within my thinking as well.

I've had no problem over the years finding players who enjoy the world I enjoy and share and that they not only populate it, but expand it with their characters and actions. I have no doubt that my world, my DMing, or even just me is the right fit for every player. It's extremely unlikely that I'd change my mind on this, and I'm not really trying to change anybody else's mind. I'm just presenting how I think through and build my world, and why I make some of the choices I do. I'm certainly no Ed Greenwood, but I don't think people question him as to what he chooses to add and remove from the published materials in his campaign. Obviously I'm being questioned in part because I'm putting it out there on a public forum with the intent of engaging in the discussion, and I'm also probably taking a contrary view to most of the others in the discussion.

I do try to make sure that before people join they know what they're getting into. In the current campaign I've provided a 37 page booklet of house rules and modifications, along with campaign background for their starting point (Berdusk in this case). I don't expect them to read it all, but it's there for them to engage with as much as they'd like. Most of my players don't really care about the specifics of the rules to a large degree (and I do end up with a lot of new players too). The overall feel is much like the 1st edition where the bulk of the rules were in the DMG for the DM, and the players just had the rules to build their characters. I love having players who know the rules well, it helps keep things moving, and right now it's about 30% knowing the rules well, 70% not. That probably has an impact on them being OK with my approach, since they haven't really attached themselves to things like dragonborn yet.

I do really enjoy these types of discussions, because I learn a lot from how others manage their worlds and game, and at the same time it helps me understand my world and decisions a bit better too.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Mecheon]

I will say I have no problem with Dragonborn, but I am really bored with the whole Tolkein-esque type of thing going around.

If the party was a drow, a duergar, a high elf, a minotaur, a dragonborn and a tiefling, that would bother me.

I don't know about you, but that sounds amazing. I mean, one of the campaigns I follow had a frog, a human, a kobold, a myconid and a tengu team up to defeat, well, possibly evil, possibly just anything in their way. And it works.

 

[Mephista]

I've got a question for the thread in general (which you, Ilbranteloth, are of course free to answer as well):

Is part of the problem with dragonborn the fact that they are official?

I suspect it has more to do with ... gaming conservatism, for lack of a better term. People don't like change, they want the purity of the old ways. Humans, dwarves, halflings, and elves were enough for us back in the day, so they're good enough now!

Exaggerations aside, its a real issue in the world, and not just gaming. Change is not easy in a lot of cases. Its inevitable, but people resist it, they want to keep things from being different. You see it all the time in movies, books, games, comics. Whenever something "new" and progressive happens, there's a huge fit thrown. People throw fits when superheroes change costumes. And that's just geek culture - the same applies in the wider world, but I don't want to get into that mess.

At the heart, I really think its just people resisting things being different from what they're comfortable with. Especially with the older crowd - basic biology states that people grow set in their ways as time goes on. Younger generations are more comfortable with wider range of things, they're more eager to explore and try new things - their minds are more flexible.

Some people just don't want to vary from Tolkein, the so-called traditional setting, while the newer players rarely give two second's thought about LotR beyond "Oh, hey, saw that movie."

No, half-dragons (although different) go back at least as far as 2nd Edition in the Forgotten Realms, and of course the Dragonlance draconians go back to the 1st edition, which bear a much closer resemblance to the dragonborn.


Ilbranteloth

I discluded them specifically because neither half-dragons nor draconians have a culture of their own. Dragonborn in 3e have a calling and identity from being half-Other, and Spellscales are a literal full race of beings, with a culture, calling, lifestyle, and provolicity.

Hells, the dragonborn have more of a cultural identity than halflings​.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Let me guess. You're under 30? Progress =/= better. Plenty of historical evidence for that, too. So before deriding is old fogies, adress the arguments.

There's a reason that Tolkein is the touchstone and that even anti-fantasists like George R. R. Martin (Notice the extra R as the homage?) respect him.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

@Ilbranteloth It may surprise you to know that, at least in my case, the "diaspora story" was something I...pretty much unconsciously assumed for the default 4e dragonborn (in the default setting, properly "Arkhosians") because of their history. It's true that their "honorable warrior" culture is the part that gets played up. But even in the 4e default setting (often called "PoLand" because of the points of light description), they were driven from their homeland--the great war between them and the tieflings (Bael Turath) destroyed both civilizations, with the Arkhosians' already dryish lands suffering a withering curse that transformed them into barren deserts. The struggle to retain a social identity in the face of being spread to the winds is definitely an avenue they prepared for such characters--as is pining for their civilization's lost glory (though many races can lay claim to that in PoLand, e.g. elves, tieflings, humans).

@Mephista I...hesitate to assume such things, fearing that I will reveal more of my own biases than others'. :S

My problem is I love Tolkien...I just don't see anything wrong with having other things besides--or even instead of--elves and dwarves in a world with Tolkien-esque storytelling. I mean, heck, after the Chronicles of Narnia, my next stop on the fantasy-novel train was The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings!

Edit: And another way to say it. I have no problem with enjoying Tolkien-esque stories--even ones that remain focused only on those groups he chose to write into his stories. But limiting yourself to only that...and opposing the inclusion of support for ideas beyond that...seems just incredibly confining, for little reason other than to shut down creative avenues. It would be like saying, "I've been eating a variety of food for 40 years...now all I want to eat is lasagna, every day, forever. And I don't want other people buying soy sauce and tofu either!" The former part is just...why would you limit yourself to even one kind of cuisine, let alone a single dish--even a really versatile one like "stir fry" or something? What happens when someone asks if you'll make soup? And the second part makes even less sense than that, since it's about controlling what others can do.

I get that it can be annoying to have to tell people, "No, just because it's in the book doesn't mean I'm okay with you playing one." But I just straight up don't see how that mild annoyance--even if it is repeated every single time you run a game!--trumps others' desire to play it at all. And yes, even with 5e, I've had DMs (well, *a* DM) who plays things purely by-the-book (no need to tell me how aberrant that is, it's already been discussed to death).

 

[I'm A Banana]

It may surprise you to know that, at least in my case, the "diaspora story" was something I...pretty much unconsciously assumed for the default 4e dragonborn (in the default setting, properly "Arkhosians") because of their history. It's true that their "honorable warrior" culture is the part that gets played up. But even in the 4e default setting (often called "PoLand" because of the points of light description), they were driven from their homeland--the great war between them and the tieflings (Bael Turath) destroyed both civilizations, with the Arkhosians' already dryish lands suffering a withering curse that transformed them into barren deserts. The struggle to retain a social identity in the face of being spread to the winds is definitely an avenue they prepared for such characters--as is pining for their civilization's lost glory (though many races can lay claim to that in PoLand, e.g. elves, tieflings, humans).

I do think part of the cool thing about FR's DB in 5e is that the civilization they hail from isn't one of "lost glory," it's one they're happy to be away from. You're invited to play a DB who has no home, who is making one by dint of their own efforts in the place they currently find themselves. As the Real World struggles with refugee crises and immigration policies, it's interesting to be able to play a character in a game who you can play as struggling with the (imperfect) fantasy analogy of that experience.

My problem is I love Tolkien...I just don't see anything wrong with having other things besides--or even instead of--elves and dwarves in a world with Tolkien-esque storytelling.
...
And another way to say it. I have no problem with enjoying Tolkien-esque stories--even ones that remain focused only on those groups he chose to write into his stories. But limiting yourself to only that...and opposing the inclusion of support for ideas beyond that...seems just incredibly confining, for little reason other than to shut down creative avenues.

I think there's maybe two things at work here.

The first is that play has goals, and someone whose goal is to tell a Tolkein-esque story through their play isn't going to be interested in any options to do otherwise. You may as well ask them to go play cricket. It's just not the experience they're looking for. That doesn't mean they dislike the option, just that the option isn't for them. The mild annoyance of resisting the Default is a mild annoyance you didn't have to deal with back in 2006, and it's not like people COULDN'T play dragon-people back then, it's just that resisting the default fell on THEIR shoulders, not YOURS. You made the minor effort to include them if you wanted, and you didn't have to make the minor effort to exclude them if you didn't want them (and saying YES! to ideas always feels better than saying NO!). No one was banned, but it was opt-in, not opt-out.

The second thing keys off of that default effect, and has more to do with the assumptions of the setting and the push of the marketing materials. If you don't like them, but the game is pushing them and the marketing is pushing them and you see illos of them everywhere and they're on the cover of the book and they get their OWN book and they feature as NPC's...that's just a constant reminder of this annoyance. It's like an annoying pop song you just can't avoid or a super-annoying ad that pops up everywhere - the mental effort to dismiss it becomes great, and you start asking why you even HAVE TO expend such effort. You start to question why this is so important to everyone else, why you see it everywhere, why you're constantly being asked, "Hey, I know you said no before, but...how about now?....how about now?....what about now?...Hey! Um...how about now?". It might even be worth the effort to switch games just so you don't have to deal with the mental load of constantly saying no because you're not interested.

Again, this might be why their presentation in 5e is gentler. They're an option, they exist, but they don't dominate the conversation the way they might've seemed to in early 4e. Even in FR, you can utterly avoid the DB storyline without hurting your Sword Coast stories at all.

So I don't think it's about forbidding others from playing it.

I think it's about how much brain-space is eaten up by saying "no" to it. Not just in play, but even in reading the books and setting materials.