D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Ovinomancer]

With cleave I feel like it's a separate action, but there's a strong chance that's not how the developers meant any of the extra attacks when you use an attack action sorts of abilities and feats. I guess there's not any game vocabulary that does a great job of describing a reasonable unit of activity for reactions to go after...

Readying silence for someone starting to cast a spell feels a lot like readying a shove for someone starting to swing their sword. Dumb enough that it makes a lot of the explanatory text pointless.

Yup. My rule of thumb is 'discrete event'. An attack. Entering a square (I use a battlemat). Casting a spell. Drawing a sword. Etc. You can't ready on a portion of a discrete event "when it's about to enter that square, but before it does," or "he begins casting a spell," or "she begins to make an attack." Allowing such fine distinctions starts the war of precise language and accusations of 'you did that just to avoid my precisely worded readied action on purpose!' crap. I have a good set of players, so that's already at a minimum, but why on Earth tempt fate?

 

[Arial Black]

Well, that's encouraging. You're right, no matter what anyone else says? It might be time to climb down off of that ledge, friend.

Obviously my smiley face wasn't big enough to be noticed, but the smiley face was intended to convey that my "I'm right" was not serious.

 

[Arial Black]

Imo this would be the breakdown:

Declare you use the ready action + pick trigger.
Expend Action for your turn
Expend the associated spell slot
Perform / use up any V, S, M requirements
Finish casting the spell

*Pause*

At this point the spell is cast but the effects, the energy, is being held until released when the designated trigger is met. Once that happens the effects of the spell are released.

This means that you can only use Counterspell when the ready action is taken and the spell is cast, not when it is released later. You can't dispel anything because there's nothing yet to dispel until the spell effects are released. Again Dispel Magic is about targeting the effects, not the spell itself. If concentration is lost, the spell is also lost. This also means that the picking of targets, area the spell will affect, etc.. has not yet happened since the effects of the spell have not yet happened. The only thing that has happened is that the spell has been cast and held before the effects could occur.

Noctem, although our disagreements have been many and public, what might not be obvious is that I also agree with you on many occasions, without feeling the need to construct a post which doesn't add anything except, "Yeah...what he said".

I agree with your breakdown of the ready action.

(I'll pause now, to let you catch your breath)

I must point out, in support of my points about the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', that readying a spell specifies that you cast a spell normally (meaning: VSM components, slot burned), and that none of the effects occur. Then, as a reaction, you may release the effect into the world.

Right here, it shows that 'casting' and 'effect' do not overlap.

Zorku has postulated the idea that 'casting' and 'effect' are basically simultaneous. He speculates that the V component is happening continually throughout the duration of the spell effect of eldritch blast, and at certain points during speaking the magic words of the V component, a beam shoots out.

So, for him, if the verbal component for EB was something like, "Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!", then a beam shoots out after each phrase: "Fire one" first beam shoots, "fire two" second beam shoots, "fire three" third beam shoots, "fire four" fourth beam shoots.

This means that, for Zorku, the verbal component and the spell effect are happening simultaneously, with some beams (the spell effect) shooting while the spellcasting (verbal component) has not been completed yet.

And yet, the ready action shows that the 'casting' (VSM components) are completed, yet the 'effect' (the beams) do not exist in the world until they are released as a reaction, at a later time. This shows both the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', and also that the 'casting' is completed before the 'effect' begins.

If Zorku was correct, then think about how a readied EB would work. The warlock would have to complete the V component ("Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!"), before and beams were shot, while at the same time beams were being shot as soon as the caster said "Fire one...!" and before the reaction that releases the 'effect' (the beams) into the world.

I don't think that Zorku's circle can be squared, therefore I don't believe that his idea about 'casting' and 'effect' happening side-by-side can possibly be correct.

 

[Arial Black]

I also note that 'casting a spell' and 'taking the Cast A Spell action' are not the same thing.

Actions In Combat are required to do (most) things when you are in initiative order. So, when you are in combat (initiative order and combat rounds), then in order to cast a spell you must take an action that allows you to cast that spell, and in most cases that action is the Cast A Spell action (although there are exceptions).

However, when you are not in combat (initiative order and combat rounds) you do not need to take Actions In Combat to do stuff; you just do it! If it's a spell, you just cast it, no Cast A Spell action required.

Of course, if the thing you do/spell you cast is hostile, then surprise is checked, initiative is rolled, and Actions In Combat must be taken in order to do that thing/cast that spell.

 

[Noctem]

I've agreed with you plenty of times as well. We just seem to both be stubborn about this discussion in particular.

 

[Zorku]

Noctem, although our disagreements have been many and public, what might not be obvious is that I also agree with you on many occasions, without feeling the need to construct a post which doesn't add anything except, "Yeah...what he said".

I agree with your breakdown of the ready action.

(I'll pause now, to let you catch your breath)

I must point out, in support of my points about the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', that readying a spell specifies that you cast a spell normally (meaning: VSM components, slot burned), and that none of the effects occur. Then, as a reaction, you may release the effect into the world.

Right here, it shows that 'casting' and 'effect' do not overlap.

Zorku has postulated the idea that 'casting' and 'effect' are basically simultaneous. He speculates that the V component is happening continually throughout the duration of the spell effect of eldritch blast, and at certain points during speaking the magic words of the V component, a beam shoots out.

So, for him, if the verbal component for EB was something like, "Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!", then a beam shoots out after each phrase: "Fire one" first beam shoots, "fire two" second beam shoots, "fire three" third beam shoots, "fire four" fourth beam shoots.

This means that, for Zorku, the verbal component and the spell effect are happening simultaneously, with some beams (the spell effect) shooting while the spellcasting (verbal component) has not been completed yet.

And yet, the ready action shows that the 'casting' (VSM components) are completed, yet the 'effect' (the beams) do not exist in the world until they are released as a reaction, at a later time. This shows both the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', and also that the 'casting' is completed before the 'effect' begins.

If Zorku was correct, then think about how a readied EB would work. The warlock would have to complete the V component ("Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!"), before and beams were shot, while at the same time beams were being shot as soon as the caster said "Fire one...!" and before the reaction that releases the 'effect' (the beams) into the world.

I don't think that Zorku's circle can be squared, therefore I don't believe that his idea about 'casting' and 'effect' happening side-by-side can possibly be correct.

You started out with some nice language but then you had to go and muddy the water by acting like I'd actually run it like that in every setting.

So flaw here comes when you try to extrapolate back from the ready action to normal spells. Your cause and effect relationship doesn't exist anywhere except in the ready action where the caster is specifically concentrating on the energy for their reaction.

Instead I'm going to rewrite your sentence.
If it can work this way, then think about how a readied EB would work. The warlock would complete the verbal component ("Fire one... fire two... fire three... fire four!") during their action, holding back the energy of each beam before any beams were shot, (dropping an entire clause here,) and then use their reaction to release the 'effect' (the beams) into the world.

The way you wrote it originally was more of an argument against readying spells at all.

I also note that 'casting a spell' and 'taking the Cast A Spell action' are not the same thing.

Actions In Combat are required to do (most) things when you are in initiative order. So, when you are in combat (initiative order and combat rounds), then in order to cast a spell you must take an action that allows you to cast that spell, and in most cases that action is the Cast A Spell action (although there are exceptions).

However, when you are not in combat (initiative order and combat rounds) you do not need to take Actions In Combat to do stuff; you just do it! If it's a spell, you just cast it, no Cast A Spell action required.

Of course, if the thing you do/spell you cast is hostile, then surprise is checked, initiative is rolled, and Actions In Combat must be taken in order to do that thing/cast that spell.

I don't see your point here. Was somebody confused that we don't track initiative and the action economy when we're not in combat? "Sorry, you already spent your action ordering ale. You'll have to wait for everyone else to state that they're sitting around before you have another action you can use to seduce the barmaid. In the meantime you could move up to 30 feet."

 

[Ovinomancer]

Noctem, although our disagreements have been many and public, what might not be obvious is that I also agree with you on many occasions, without feeling the need to construct a post which doesn't add anything except, "Yeah...what he said".

I agree with your breakdown of the ready action.

(I'll pause now, to let you catch your breath)

I must point out, in support of my points about the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', that readying a spell specifies that you cast a spell normally (meaning: VSM components, slot burned), and that none of the effects occur. Then, as a reaction, you may release the effect into the world.

Right here, it shows that 'casting' and 'effect' do not overlap.

Zorku has postulated the idea that 'casting' and 'effect' are basically simultaneous. He speculates that the V component is happening continually throughout the duration of the spell effect of eldritch blast, and at certain points during speaking the magic words of the V component, a beam shoots out.

So, for him, if the verbal component for EB was something like, "Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!", then a beam shoots out after each phrase: "Fire one" first beam shoots, "fire two" second beam shoots, "fire three" third beam shoots, "fire four" fourth beam shoots.

This means that, for Zorku, the verbal component and the spell effect are happening simultaneously, with some beams (the spell effect) shooting while the spellcasting (verbal component) has not been completed yet.

And yet, the ready action shows that the 'casting' (VSM components) are completed, yet the 'effect' (the beams) do not exist in the world until they are released as a reaction, at a later time. This shows both the cause/effect relationship between 'casting' and 'effect', and also that the 'casting' is completed before the 'effect' begins.

If Zorku was correct, then think about how a readied EB would work. The warlock would have to complete the V component ("Fire one...fire two...fire three...fire four!"), before and beams were shot, while at the same time beams were being shot as soon as the caster said "Fire one...!" and before the reaction that releases the 'effect' (the beams) into the world.

I don't think that Zorku's circle can be squared, therefore I don't believe that his idea about 'casting' and 'effect' happening side-by-side can possibly be correct.

I don't think that you have the high ground in insisting that the components are entirely completed during the 'casting' part of a readied action. There's no support for this, and it's easy to rule it as continuing through the release of the effect. It's just as RAW to say, for instance, that you still have V,S,M components that need to be used during the release of the spell effect of a readied action. The rules are unclear here, entirely, meaning that your interpretation is just as valid as the above... at your table. There's not enough there for you to be able to assert that your interpretation is correct over the presented alternative.

 

[Noctem]

I don't think that you have the high ground in insisting that the components are entirely completed during the 'casting' part of a readied action. There's no support for this, and it's easy to rule it as continuing through the release of the effect. It's just as RAW to say, for instance, that you still have V,S,M components that need to be used during the release of the spell effect of a readied action. The rules are unclear here, entirely, meaning that your interpretation is just as valid as the above... at your table. There's not enough there for you to be able to assert that your interpretation is correct over the presented alternative.

I believe the logic is as follows:

In order to gain the effects of casting a spell, you must first successfully cast the spell. In order to successfully cast the spell you must:

Expend a slot of the appropriate level
Expend the required action type (Action, Bonus or Reaction being the 3 possible currently)
Perform the V, S, M requirements if any

As detailed in the spell entry and the spellcasting rules. Specifically the entry for Components found on page 79 of the Basic Rules PDF which reads "A spell’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it" and " If you can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell." This tells us that these are the requirements to even attempt to cast the spell. There's nothing in there about performing the component requirements throughout the spell, only that they are required to cast the spell in the first place. So I think this position is unfounded within the rules.

Once all of the above is completed, you have successfully cast the spell. You then gain the effects of having successfully cast the spell. So until you do the above, you have not successfully cast the spell. Some spells may have additional requirements listed in the effect section in order to cast the spell, but those are clearly listed and identified as "when you cast this spell you must also do x in order to cast the spell". But again these are all requirements that must be done in order to cast the spell and once you cast the spell you gain the effects. There is no reason to believe that you need to perform the component requirements during casting and continue into when you resolve the effects.

Now since the readied action language specifically states that you "cast the spell as normal" except that you then hold the effects until you release them later as a reaction, you would indeed NEED to perform all of the component requirements when you "cast the spell as normal" because if you didn't you wouldn't be able to cast the spell and would have nothing to ready.

 

[seebs]

I would say that "you cast as normal" at least implies "you complete all the components and no longer require them". For instance, I wouldn't let someone pickpocketing a component pouch away from a caster with a readied spell break the spell.

 

[Noctem]

I would say that "you cast as normal" at least implies "you complete all the components and no longer require them". For instance, I wouldn't let someone pickpocketing a component pouch away from a caster with a readied spell break the spell.

exactly, by the point you are holding the energy, the spell has already been cast which must include all requirements including but not limited to the component requirements. You can't successfully cast the spell if you don't provide them completely.