D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws

[Lord Twig]

I like the six saves. It encourages more rounded characters. True, I still see hyper-specialized characters, but they have weaknesses that my characters don't, and with bounded accuracy eventually my "balanced" character will be just as good as them, plus better in other areas as well.

 

[Yaarel]

Im starting to like the ability score ceiling at 20.

• No more chasing big numbers on an endless treadmill.
• Nonhumans feel right. Eg, Dwarves are tough, on average tend to be tougher, but occasionally a Human is equal.

At Epic tier at Level 21, maybe the ceiling can lift higher to 24. Feats still necessary to improve it to there. Then at Level 30, the ceiling can lift to 28. And so on. Or something like that.

 

[Herschel]

I honestly hate the cap at 20. It still has that bloat effect to it and makes numbers wonky. I would rather they capped at 18 under normal circumstances like 1E/2E if they were going to cap, and generally do away with stat increases. It's a hodge-podge as it is caught in a weird land of "stats are still really important, but we're trying to make it look like they're not."

I mean, you could do the non-human 19 cap in their boosted stat, but that would be mostly pointless.

 

[billd91]

Im starting to like the ability score ceiling at 20.

• No more chasing big numbers on an endless treadmill.
• Nonhumans feel right. Eg, Dwarves are tough, on average tend to be tougher, but occasionally a Human is equal.

I think it's one of the best changes to the system - there's a means of improvement on a PC's route from zero to hero yet it's kept off a never-ending treadmill of increasing specialization.

 

[Yaarel]

I mean, you could do the non-human 19 cap in their boosted stat, but that would be mostly pointless.

So youre saying, Dwarf Constitution caps at 20, but Human Constitution (effectively) caps at 18?

I could live with that.

I do like the Human potentially equal, tho. Some Humans are as ‘tough as a Dwarf’.

 

[Herschel]

So youre saying, Dwarf Constitution caps at 20, but Human Constitution (effectively) caps at 18?

I could live with that.

I do like the Human potentially equal, tho. Some Humans are as ‘tough as a Dwarf’.

So then cap all at 18. Without stat improvements, it would be that way anyway.

 

[Yaarel]

So then cap all at 18. ...

If capping scores at 18, then I would use a lower array. And allow feats to improve scores to 18.

Standard Array: 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9

 

[Jester David]

Stat bonuses in a class system reward specialization.

Very true. But when you can match your offence and defence specialization it's even more desirable and encourages you away from other statistics.

 

[Raith5]

Yes it's a presumption, but there's a long history of the saving throw and it's fairly anodyne. We presume the payer wants to avoid bad effects as a matter of default.

Originally, IIRC, the saves were more of a class based defense against particular forms of attack rather than attempts to mitigate individual actions launched against them. Tying it to reaction, though, also allows a decision based on merits. It risks something for a good reward.

But the thing is why not have saves against physical/melee attacks then? Why are magical effects dealt with in a separate system? The thing I liked about 4e attacks against defences is that the agent that decides to act always rolls the dice.

The 4e system is elegant idea and the idea of turning saves into ability checks is theoretically a great idea but I have not found it practical or elegant idea (not to mention spells like sleep that bypass the save system entirely). I enjoy 5e but it seems to me that the idea of saving was brought in 100% for legacy/history marketing reasons rather than reasons of elegance.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But the thing is why not have saves against physical/melee attacks then? Why are magical effects dealt with in a separate system? The thing I liked about 4e attacks against defences is that the agent that decides to act always rolls the dice.

From a game flow standpoint, it works better to use saving throws against multi-target spells (or breath weapons). Instead of one person making four sequential rolls and comparing them to four different defense numbers, you would have four people each making one roll and comparing to the same save DC.