D&D 5E How does the Monk perform? (and revisiting monk spells)

[Xeviat]

I would not like seeing the monk lose their Ki points mechanic; it would have to be changed drastically to allow for a 1/3rd spellcasting class progression to be added with a subclass.

Monk Ki with Way of 4 Elements has almost as much spellcasting per short rest as the base warlock (not counting invocations and the 6th through 9th level spells). Changing the cost to 1/level would be very good, I like the variant someone posted earlier.

Thanks for all the input. Does anyone feel like their damage suffers at later levels when they can't flurry through their Ki fast enough, or are their other abilities enough to make a difference (hit with a stun, hit with a trip, two more attacks with advantage ... all for only 2 ki).

 

[RulesJD]

I've said it a thousand times before. If you want your Monk damage potential to keep up, find a way to get Booming Blade + Hex, or Booming Blade + Divine Favor (or both). Any spell that adds damage per hit is by definition going to be better on a Monk than other classes. It's sustain DPS, not burst, but stun locking an enemy = you can solo monsters your own CR level. Other classes can't remotely claim that.

 

[Bardbarian]

I am not sure how Booming Blade would help a Monk? As a cantrip its decent but not better than 3 attacks and certainly not better than 4 with ki spent.

 

[n00b f00]

I too am unsure about the cantrip. But hex is genius. Monks get a lot of attacks but don't do much damage on any one of them. The die aren't large and aren't going to get the same value from great weapon feat as a fighter.

But when you add a d6 with each attack now you're cooking with fire. How about we add on an action surge? 8d10 + 8d6 +40? That's not a terrible nova, maybe if you're crazy adding on great weapon fighting for the extra + 40 from the quarterstaff attacks.

The issue becomes how do you get hex. Do you get it from a feat and get the one cast? Or do you take the cha points and take a warlock level straight up?

Going to lose out on some hit points if you do that. But that is a lot of reliable extra damage if you do. Variant human, take either the HP feat or alert and then just pump wis and dex.

This one trick nova pony sounds exciting, it'd come online as monks normally fall off.

 

[hejtmane]

I too am unsure about the cantrip. But hex is genius. Monks get a lot of attacks but don't do much damage on any one of them. The die aren't large and aren't going to get the same value from great weapon feat as a fighter.

But when you add a d6 with each attack now you're cooking with fire. How about we add on an action surge? 8d10 + 8d6 +40? That's not a terrible nova, maybe if you're crazy adding on great weapon fighting for the extra + 40 from the quarterstaff attacks.

The issue becomes how do you get hex. Do you get it from a feat and get the one cast? Or do you take the cha points and take a warlock level straight up?

Going to lose out on some hit points if you do that. But that is a lot of reliable extra damage if you do. Variant human, take either the HP feat or alert and then just pump wis and dex.

This one trick nova pony sounds exciting, it'd come online as monks normally fall off.

How about 3 levels ranger you get hunters mark stacks with your wisdom + 1d8 colossal slayer when using a weapon

If you want to maximize the monk long term take duelist use a 1 handed weapon and add +2 damage on those two attacks as while

 

[Sword of Spirit]

But how do you not have the offense? Going off memory you can hit for a 1d8+4 (Quarterstaff, Martial Arts, 18 Dex) and 1d4+4 (Unarmed, MArtial Arts, 18 Dex) while fighter and everyone else is at best doing 2d6+4 or 1d12+4. Rogue Sneak attack is fairly good, Rapier would give them 1d8+1d6+4 but still, the monk's damage is almost overshadowing at level 1 and those stats.

Next level starts Ki and the monk truly shines IMO. You can choose more attacks (1d8+4+1d4+4+1d4+4 if they all hit) mobilty thru Disengage or Dash, or defense thru dodge. No class other than the Rogue can Disengage as a bonus, and I don't remember if there is any other class in the game that can Dodge as a bonus action. Monks can choose whether to go all into offense or defense while the Fighter Action Surge or Rogue Cunning Action are only one or the other

Thanks for bringing this up, which is consistent with my own experience. At very low levels monk is one of the best damage dealing melee classes in the game.

 

[n00b f00]

Yeah, neither of those are bad ideas. More levels but you get more and don't have to out 13 in a likely dump stat. And taking dueling becomes strictly superior a little later than using the quarterstaff staff, but not that long, and also is a bit thematically cooler.

Just grabbing steak knives off a plate, smashing couches for table legs and the general awesome of nunchuks and hand axes.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hey everyone. I haven't gotten a chance to see a monk in play. They look cool, and I'm eager to see one.

How do they work out? I'm under the impression that damage isn't their forte. They don't get a significant level 10 and 17 boost like the warrior classes tend to get. Their flurry doesn't really get much better. The damage gain to their martial arts is small; it's nice that it spreads out among all their attacks, but their damage per attack still doesn't even equal that of a Fighter with the Dueling style (1d8+7 vs. 1d10+5), and they need to use Ki to keep up with the fighter's 4 attacks at 20 (though they did have 4 attacks far earlier than the Fighter did).

But I know that's not all the monk has going for them. Since "typical" combats don't last very long, it isn't long before the monk can afford to drop a ki every round on flurry and still have plenty to spare for stunning fists and other tricks. How do they function in play? Are they best for support, stunning choice targets for the others to focus fire on? Or is it good for them to use their ki for defense and be a wall?

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I recently took the time to sit down and actually read the Sun Soul monk in fullness, and I noticed something interesting about their burning hands spell; it costs the same 2 ki that you'd expect a 1st level spell to cost based on the formula put out in the PHB for the 4 elements monk, but they get to cast it as a bonus action. Does this suggest a way to work on adjusting the 4 elements monk to make it more playable?

Let's compare a level 5 monk with a level 5 fighter. I will first compare without feats. I am assuming a day filled with 6 different combats that each last 4 rounds. I am assuming 2 short rests per day. I did not factor in crit chance.

Fighter,
Level 1: 16 str, greatsword (avg dmg 8.33), avg damage per attack = 11.33, 11.33*24 (attacks per day) = 272 damage per day, 272*50% (chance to hit average level 1 monoster) = 136 avg damage per day

Level 2: 16 str, greatsword (avg dmg 8.33), avg damage per attack = 11.33, 11.33*24 + 11.33*3 (uses of action surge per day) = 11.33*27*50% = 153 avg damage per day

Level 3: 153 avg damage per day from attacks and 12 uses of battlemaster dice per day (2 short rests). You will miss 50% of your attacks. That means there are 12 misses on average. I will turn approximately 6 of those 12 misses into hits using precision strike on each one. 153 + 11.33*6 = 221 avg damage per day.

Level 4: (+2 str) = 12.33dmg and 55% hit rate = 183.1 avg damage (including action surge). 10.8 avg misses now. So approximately 5.5 * 12.33 = 67.815 damage from precision strike. 288.815 avg damage per day.

Level 5: 12.33*27*2*55% = 366.201 (including action surge) + approximately 21 misses. about 8.25 turned into hits = 8.25*12.33 = 101.7225 =469.9 avg damage per day.
*But most people don't use precision strike and average damage per day is much lower if you look at 12 *1d8 extra damage from manuevers. At level 5 that comes out to 420 damage per day.



Monk 16 dex
Lvl 1 = 1d8+3 + 1d4+3 = 13 * .5 = 6.5 * 24 = 156 avg damage per day

Lvl 2 = 156 + 1d4+3 * 50% * 6 (flurry of blows 6x per day) = 16.5 = 172.5 avg damage per day

Lvl 3 = 172.5 avg damage per day + 2.5+3 * 50% * 3 = 8.25 + 172.5 = 180.75

Lvl 4 = 1d8+4+1d4+4 * .55 * 24 + 1d4+4*.55*16 = 198 + 57.2 = 255.2

Lvl 5 = 1d8+4 + 1d8+4 + 1d6+4 * .55*24 = 323.4 + 1d6+4*.55*20 = 323.4 + 82.5 = 405.9


The featless version of monk is very comparable to a featless fighter in the damage department especially early game.

In actual party play stunning strike is going to typically be much stronger than flurry of blows IMO.

Shadow Monk is my favorite as the innate ability to cast darkvision allows you to easily go human for an extra level 1 feat. I like to take healer with this as the first few levels I'm squishy and it helps with that and helps the party alot. Teleportation at level 6 is really cool too and does a ton for exploration.

Basically what I am trying to say is that a monk can stay close enough to most fighters damage output that i'd rather have a 100% pure monk than a fighter. The only time that analysis is different is pre level 5 because the monk is a little squishy in the early game and a fighter is like a rock.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think that the question presented is interesting, and largely depends on how you view it.

I am playing a monk (open hand) right now, and this is the first time in my long history of playing that I've ever had the desire to play a monk. So, they are doing something right. Given that my playing opportunities are few and far between, I had to give a lot of thought as to what I wanted to play. And, so far, I'm having a blast. But it's also for RP reasons and in a very limited sample size.

Is the monk a good choice? Sure.

However, if you enjoy optimizing (DPR, nova, etc.), is the monk the best choice? Probably not. I'm not an optimizer,* but if you were just looking to accentuate abilities, I don't think the Monk is the best platform for that. But it is a *lot* of fun.

The person upthread who said the (open hand) monk is the fast skirmisher probably had it best.


*Necessary - not that there's anything wrong with that!

I optimize and it's usually for 2-3 person parties. I like to find characters that cover alot of bases instead of just breaking the game in a single aspect.

Shadow Monk covers:
1. Darkvision for anyone in the party whenever needed.
2. Pass without trace (for stealth needs)
3. nighttime teleportation and invisiblity for stealth missions
5. Best support ability in game with stunning strike
6. Possibly the best user of the healer feat (due to mobility and ability to bonus action disengage)
*(also can take feat at level 1 by going human which isn't a major detriment because can self cast darkvision when needed starting at level 3)
7. Solid Damage Dealer when desired.
8. Great survivability bonuses

***In a decent party a monk that uses stunning strike can increase total party damage far more than even the most optimized damage dealers.

 

[Eltab]

FrogReaver, an addendum:
Anything the Shadow Monk can do at night, he can also do in the dark - say in a cave. If the rest of your friends do not need to bring a torch either, The Underdark is your playground.