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D&D 5E Rogue assassins/handheld crossbows

Could you elaborate, please?
Sure: you took Crossbow Expert as a feat; picked Rogue / Assassin as character class, &c. You bought two hand crossbows and ammunition.
You spent time at table talking about this cool combo you found that sounds really effective and you want to try.

In-plot, you find a place where an ambush can be set up. You alert the DM (me) that you want to do so. You tell me that you are pre-loading your hand crossbows and otherwise preparing your equipment so the ambush goes off properly. You make a Stealth roll - hopefully rolling well - to indicate your effectiveness at hiding out of sight.
The first time or few, I'm going to make you go through all the details so we can both learn / double-check how this works (or doesn't, if a misconception has arisen). After we get practice, you can just summarize "I prepare for a capital-A Ambush".

The enemy approaches your ambush, and I check if they notice you. If not, you get to launch an Alpha Strike, remind me that your Assassin abilities are in play, and fire the hand crossbow(s).
Roll to hit and implement combat as usual.
If anybody is still standing, both you and I should double-check the rules for how your character works mechanically, and when your turn comes up again you can declare what you want to do.

I'm not going to let you get all the above if the tactical situation is different. Suppose "You see a group up ahead coming the other way. They see you too, and prepare for trouble." Some of the above still applies - you have the hand crossbows and ammo, Crossbow Expert applies with every crossbow Attack, for instance - but I would rule no Surprise is possible, and other parts of the combo may not be applicable to the tactical situation.

I'm not going to nerf something into uselessness just because I (as DM) got the short end of the stick from it, but I'm also not going to let it turn into an always-on instant "I win" button for Team Hero.
 

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Okay Eltab, just wanted to know if your comment was geared towards the original discussion.

It appears it is not (since by the rules #1 you don't actually need a second crossbow and #2 can use "Alpha Strike"* in every combat where you gain surprise).

Good luck with your campaign.

Zapp

PS. By "Alpha Strike" I assume you mean either the "Assassinate" or the "Death Strike" ability or both.
 

I like this guy. It's like a lot of the builds I see at my FLGS: a lot of effort is expended to make the character really good at something. If it's not overwhelmingly powerful, then it's great that the player takes that much interest in builds. If it is, then usually the player has misinterpreted the rule (my favorite being the ranger player who thought the Hunter's Colossus Slayer extra damage went up every turn he kept hitting...)

So, assuming the assassin is 4th level (to get the Crossbow Expert feat) and has set up her shot properly, she makes two attacks at advantage (one attack from the Attack action, the other as a bonus action from Crossbow Expert, at advantage because Assassin). Each one that hits is a critical hit (because Assassin). The hand crossbow damage becomes 2d6 (double the base) + 4d6 (double the Sneak Attack) + Dex bonus (let's assume 4, since to get Crossbow Expert she has forgone getting +2 Dex). The damage range is 11-40 per crossbow, with an average of 25 piercing for the primary attack. The second attack doesn't get Sneak Attack damage, so it only does 6-18 damage, with an average of 11 piercing. Total of 36 average. That's pretty deadly, which is in keeping with the term "assassin." :)

If the assassin uses poison, that damage also gets doubled. This could be an even more significant bump depending on the poison, although the DMG shies away from making super-deadly poisons easily-available (intentionally).

In the following rounds the Assassin's bonuses go away, and the fact you need to have a hand free to load means only one shot can be taken every round (I'd fight shortsword and crossbow, were it me). This came as a surprise to my players, who expected the Assassin to be a "fighty rogue." My response was, "You want to be the best at fighting, you need to play a Fighter!" This is one of the things I love the most about the new edition.

Anyway, I'll add the following monster/NPC who makes use of this.

---

Tz'zird "Tizz" Do'Nerd-on
Medium humanoid (drow), lawful neutral

Armor Class 16 (studded leather)
Hit Points 78 (12d8 + 24)
Speed 30 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
11 (+0) 18 (+4) 14 (+2) 13 (+1) 11 (+0) 11 (+0)

Saves Dex +8, Int +5
Skills Acrobatics +8, Deception +4, Perception +4, Stealth +12
Damage Resistances poison
Senses darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 14
Languages Elvish, Thieves' Cant, Undercommon
Challenge 8 (3,900 XP)

Assassinate. During her first turn, Tizz has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn. Any hit Tizz scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.

Crossbow Expert. Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on Tizz's ranged attack rolls.

Evasion. If Tizz is subjected to an effect that allows her to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, Tizz instead takes no damage if she succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if she fails.

Fey Ancestry. Tizz has advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put her to sleep.

Innate Spellcasting. Tizz's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 10). She can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:

At will: dancing lights
1/day each: darkness, faerie fire

Sneak Attack (1/Turn). Tizz deals an extra 13 (4d6) damage when she hits a target with a weapon attack and has advantage on the attack roll, or when the target is within 5 feet of an ally of Tizz's that isn't incapacitated and Tizz doesn't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, Tizz has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. Tizz makes two hand crossbow attacks, or one shortsword attack and one hand crossbow attack.

Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 24 (7d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Hand Crossbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage, and the target succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 hour. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the target is also unconscious while poisoned in this way. The target wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.
 

Ergo: you can make all your attacks with one and the same hand crossbow. A level 5 rogue would make two attacks with the hand crossbow, fulfilling the feat's requirement, and then a third attack with the same hand crossbow.
Where is the third attack coming from here??
 

A player at my table is a Human Fighter 6 / Assassin 4. He has the Alert, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter & Skulker feats
With Extra Attack and bonus action shot thats 3 attacks per round at Hit +11 1d6+5 (+2d6 SA) ... with SS thats Hit +6, 1d6+15 ~avg 55 dmg/rnd.. and that doesn't even take into count critical dmg. Its not uncommon for him to avg around 80 dmg on a round he is using SS. Needless to say, I am seriously considering a Homebrew ruling on the SS & GWM feats come my next campaign LOL
 

A player at my table is a Human Fighter 6 / Assassin 4. He has the Alert, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter & Skulker feats
With Extra Attack and bonus action shot thats 3 attacks per round at Hit +11 1d6+5 (+2d6 SA) ... with SS thats Hit +6, 1d6+15 ~avg 55 dmg/rnd.. and that doesn't even take into count critical dmg. Its not uncommon for him to avg around 80 dmg on a round he is using SS. Needless to say, I am seriously considering a Homebrew ruling on the SS & GWM feats come my next campaign LOL

Are you letting him use sneak attack more than once per round? At +6 attack he shouldn't be hitting better than half the time. So he should average only 34 damage per round then.

Also, how does he get +11 attack? It looks like he has used all his ASIs on feats, but it seems like he would need a 20 Dex. I guess a +1 weapon and he started with a natural 17?
 

Prof Bonus +4, Dex +4, Archery +2 xbow +1, = +11
As for hiting. He pretty much always attacks with advantage .. either via 1st to go in round.. what with +9 initiative or by faerie fire (via a druid in party).
Dmg per round 1d6 +15 (+4 dex, +1 xbow, +10 SS)
1/rd SA +2d6
plus 3d6 via Hex (he is also a 2nd lvl warlock) lol ... So more often than not he gets 2 rounds of critical damage., Surprirse round, and on 2nd round he usually wins initiative.. SO if he hits a target all six time, before they even get to react.. they've taken (6d6 xbow) + (6d6 Hex) + (4d6 Sneak Attack) * 2 for critical dmg = 32d6 ~avg 112 + 90 dmg bonus for a total DEATH SCORE of 202.. INSANE ...ROFL.. of course thats just avg dmg.. if he rolls say 80%'ish dmg he is doing around 240 dmg .. :) Not much can survive 2 rounds of xbow death.. I've recently had cause to wonder if WoTC really thought the mechanics for these feats out to closely.. might have missed some play-testing there I think.

At earlier levels he was cool, around lvl 8 he got dangerous.. since he hit lvl 12 his dmg got truely insane.. If i ever played and wanted to cake walk a campaign.. just have a party of four hand xbow archers.. Don't need anything else, because they would oblierate anything they came across!
 

Prof Bonus +4, Dex +4, Archery +2 xbow +1, = +11
As for hiting. He pretty much always attacks with advantage .. either via 1st to go in round.. what with +9 initiative or by faerie fire (via a druid in party).
Dmg per round 1d6 +15 (+4 dex, +1 xbow, +10 SS)
1/rd SA +2d6
plus 3d6 via Hex (he is also a 2nd lvl warlock) lol ... So more often than not he gets 2 rounds of critical damage., Surprirse round, and on 2nd round he usually wins initiative.. SO if he hits a target all six time, before they even get to react.. they've taken (6d6 xbow) + (6d6 Hex) + (4d6 Sneak Attack) * 2 for critical dmg = 32d6 ~avg 112 + 90 dmg bonus for a total DEATH SCORE of 202.. INSANE ...ROFL.. of course thats just avg dmg.. if he rolls say 80%'ish dmg he is doing around 240 dmg .. :) Not much can survive 2 rounds of xbow death.. I've recently had cause to wonder if WoTC really thought the mechanics for these feats out to closely.. might have missed some play-testing there I think.

At earlier levels he was cool, around lvl 8 he got dangerous.. since he hit lvl 12 his dmg got truely insane.. If i ever played and wanted to cake walk a campaign.. just have a party of four hand xbow archers.. Don't need anything else, because they would oblierate anything they came across!
Some of that doesn't seem to make sense.
He only gets one auto-crit: while his opponent is surprised. That is only for the first turn of combat, not until his opponent gets to act.

How is he getting to cast Hex (bonus action requiring Verbal Material and Somatic components) as well as getting three shots in the first round? (3rd shot also requires bonus action.)
 

ASSASSINATE
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit. Hex is cast before combat starts usually, it does have a 1 hour duration after all.
Surprise: If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. (We have been interpreting that to mean your surprised until your initiative comes around .. Guessing thats not right ?)

Well, the way we've been playing it (and I am happy if we're wrong! lol)..
Surprise round...Example..PCs hear giants talking in a camp in the woods. They sneak up and ambush/attack the camping giants.
Roll initiative.. the Assassin (as usual beats everyone most of the time with +9).. The Giants are surprised so don't get to act in round 1.
Assassinate .. Attacks with advantage.. hits are Critical (unless you're saying only the 1st hit should be? But aren't they surprised until they can act in round 2? ). So 2 attacks, plus bonus action attack = 3 attacks (assuming all hit) for 3d6+45 + 3d6 Hex + 2d6 (SA) *Critical (which we have been doing as another 8d6 ?)
Round 2, Assassin beats Giants in iniative so gets to act before them.. Same thing as in round 1.. BOOM.. 200+ damage?
 
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The giants aren't surprised after the first round. And how do you have hex up?

But in general, yes letting an assassin surprise you is bad news.
 

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