D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Tony Vargas]

That is when some movies started cropping up about fantasy realm in the early 80's
Beast master cult classic
Dragon Slayer solid
The sword and sorcerer only good part was the tri blade sword
Disney Black Cauldron (Butchered the book I still have some hate for Disney over that)

Don't forget Hawk the Slayer, Krull, and (on TV) Fugitive from the Empire. Conan & Excalibur go without saying.

 

[hejtmane]

They might, if we're really, really lucky, be about to make up for that: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/41976/disney-sets-a-chronicles-of-prydian-film

They better get it right this time with the characters they totally butcher them the Bard was young and a swordsman not some old dumb guy; Gurgi was taller and he was not some cute and cuddly creature. Like I said it got me hooked on the Fantasy Realm. Thanks for the link some what excited now but also worried because of the last fiasco.

The Article says six books but there where five books
The Book of Three
The Black Cauldron
The Castle of Lyr
Taran The Wanderer
The High King

 

[ZzarkLinux]

2e didn't have anything like (prestiege classes) at launch, maybe in the later 'Option' books (...) Even Kits were in the 'Complete..' books.

Hmm. That's unfortunate. Without subclasses / PrCs / Kits in the 2e Core PHB, they really handicapped their ability to release Player Suppliments. There just wasn't a framework to customize anything.

I guess that would have been hard to fix without releasing a D&D 2.5 edition. Maybe a D&D 2.5 Players's Handbook could have included sub/prestiege/paragon classes framework. I guess that's what Skills & Powers was trying to do.

Some (2e) campaign settings had what could be the first iteration of the PrC. The DL Knight of the Rose and Wizard of High Sorcery are two examples that come to mind.

Personally, I never liked the level pre-reqs of PrCs. I think most concepts should be accessible at level 1. PrCs with pre-reqs above level 1 should be the exception not the norm.

I agree. Concepts need to be available out-of-the-gate. Late blooming Prestiege Classes don't fit the bill. Even getting a subclass Prestiege Class available at Level 3 is too late IMO. I actually think WotC doesn't release enough classes. IMO That's why people powergame the dualclassing rules and chargen stuff, because a desired class just hasn't been published yet.

They should just marry the classes to the adventure, release more classes, and remove Prestiege Classes/multiclassing altogether IMO. Just release it as a darn class !! I would have no problems with them releasing a "Ravenloft Ranger" and "Ravenloft Swordwizard" and "RavenLord" just to push more classes . Hell, call it "Ravenloft Coast Adventurer's Guide". Releasing more classes, even with fluffy fluff, would make players happy without invalidating the PHB. Oh well, I'm dreaming ...

 

[jayoungr]

They might, if we're really, really lucky, be about to make up for that: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/41976/disney-sets-a-chronicles-of-prydian-film

Oh, great ... now a whole new generation of children can be traumatized just as I was when...

[sblock]...they butcher about two-thirds of the cast in the final volume. I had never read anything with such a high death count before, and I was deeply upset at the time.[/sblock]

 

[Tony Vargas]

double post

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hmm. That's unfortunate. Without subclasses / PrCs / Kits in the 2e Core PHB, they really handicapped their ability to release Player Suppliments. There just wasn't a framework to customize anything.

Water under the bridge, now. 2e did offer tons of options via later supplements.

I guess that would have been hard to fix without releasing a D&D 2.5 edition. Maybe a D&D 2.5 Players's Handbook could have included sub/prestiege/paragon classes framework. I guess that's what Skills & Powers was trying to do.

Many consider the later printings and '...Option' series to be a sort of 2.5, yes.

I agree. Concepts need to be available out-of-the-gate. Late blooming Prestiege Classes don't fit the bill. Even getting a subclass Prestiege Class available at Level 3 is too late IMO.

I keep thinking they should've rung the "3rd is the new 1st" bell a deal harder. Starting at 3rd solves several problems like that.

They should just marry the classes to the adventure, release more classes, and remove Prestiege Classes/multiclassing altogether IMO. Just release it as a darn class !! I would have no problems with them releasing a "Ravenloft Ranger" and "Ravenloft Swordwizard" and "RavenLord" just to push more classes . Hell, call it "Ravenloft Coast Adventurer's Guide". Releasing more classes, even with fluffy fluff, would make players happy without invalidating the PHB. Oh well, I'm dreaming ...

I guess there's no reason a class customized to a specific setting absolutely needs be a PrC or sub-class rather than a full class. It's a little less work, I suppose.

 

[Dorian_Grey]

Someone FAR up this thread had posted that you need the backgrounds in 5e in order to have alternative character concepts (instead of just a straight fighter). Although backgrounds are interesting, I don't think they are necessary. To show this, just using 2e I decided to put together two character concepts with nothing more than just the Player's Handbook. No Complete books. No Player's Options. My PHB is the recently released green cover one - which is the equivalent of the 1995 release.

[sblock]Example 1: Fighter with a Religious Background in 2e

Quinn Torrin
Lawful Good Human Fighter, Level 1

Str: 13 | Int: 12
Dex: 10 | Wis: 8
Con: 15 | Chr: 9

Weapon Prof (4)
1. Short Sword
2. Dagger
3. Bow, Short
4. Halberd

Non-Weapon Prof (3 + 3)
Heraldry (1 Slot) (Int 0)
Etiquette (1 Slot) (Chr 0)
Religion (2 Slots) (Wis 0)
Reading/Writing (2 Slots) (Int +1)

Background
Quinn was young when he was orphaned by one of the many plagues that ripped through the country side after the last orc war. From an isolated farm, he didn't know a contingent from the local temple had arrived to provide support - until it was to late. He packed what few possessions and left to go find help. Overwhelmed with sadness and exhaustion, he came to town barely able to put one foot in front of the other - unaware, in his grief, that he had also become sick. Collapsing in the center of town, the priests from the temple found him and were able to save his life.

Now an orphan, the priests offered him a place with them. At first they thought he might train as a priest or cleric, but he did not have the attention span to master the deep mysteries. This was not uncommon, and although he would become a functionary - he was not invited to join those who wielded the power of the Gods. He did, however, do well in physical training and was offered a place in the Temple Guard. There he mastered the martial skills considered fundamental in a Guardsman. Yet, he also quickly picked up the skills often associated with the Court. His mastery of etiquette and heraldry made him invaluable to the Guard Captain, and he was promoted to the role of messenger. Now he wanders the country side at the behest of his Captain, carrying messages, speaking privately with those who were once well above his station, and on occasion, acting as a formal witness for the Temple.

Example 2: Fighter with Criminal Background in 2e

Dyroc "The Uncouth" Marel
Neutral Evil Human Fighter, Level 1

Str: 13 | Int: 12
Dex: 15 | Wis: 5
Con: 12 | Chr: 10

Weapon Prof (4)
1. Broad Sword
2. Dagger
3. Crossbow, Light
4. Spear

Non-Weapon Prof (3 + 3)
Rope Use (2 Slots) (Dex +1)
Set Snares (2 Slots) (Dex 0)
Gaming (2 Slots) (Chr +1)

Background
Dyroc (Dy to his friends), was a guardsman in the small port city near where the adventure begins. He was often considered foolish by most who knew him, but many figured that his joining the Guard was a good idea: the structure would provide the discipline he was sorely lacking on his own. Dy, however, would not be so easily deterred from fulfilling his desires. Although most of the time this manifested itself in compulsive gambling on the water front, followed by frequent visits with the ladies of the night that worked the same locations (and even quicker runs to the Temple for potions that would relieve the burning sensations), he also started making "friends". For small payments, or ignoring his gambling debts, Dyroc would look the other way when certain people sought to leave or enter the city that knew specific pass phrases.

It wasn't long before he was caught. His new friends were caught by other Guard members and turned on him to seek leniency from the local Lord. When the guards went to find him, he had already fled - tipped off by friends he still owed money too. He left a number of traps behind, and the snares injured and harmed many of the guards who broke into his flat.[/sblock]

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They better get it right this time with the characters they totally butcher them the Bard was young and a swordsman not some old dumb guy; Gurgi was taller and he was not some cute and cuddly creature. Like I said it got me hooked on the Fantasy Realm. Thanks for the link some what excited now but also worried because of the last fiasco.

Huh. I read those books several times but until you wrote that it never occurred to me that I didn't know how old Fflewddur Fflam was. I guess I thought of him as kind of middle-aged or something, purely because he was old (i.e. grown-up) compared to Taran and Eilonwy.

This slightly changes how I few Ffleddur.

 

[pemerton]

I have noticed that many people who favor 4th edition were those players who had not played prior editions.

I've noticed that many of the people who favour 4e - eg many posters on these boards, as well as the group I play with - have been playing D&D since the 70s or early 80s. In my own case, the relevant date is 1982.

I've also noticed, based on posts on these boards plus talking to people I know who play 5e, that many of those who play 5e haven't played D&D before.

I'm not sure that anything much follows from all these observations, though.

Granted, you didn't need to physically use the cards to play 4th ed., but the direction it took the game in was very CCG motivated IMHO.

CCGs are wargames or boardgames whose business model is based around (i) constantly selling new components by (ii) managing (via marketing, accreditation, market churn, etc) an ever-changing "official" play environment.

4e, like all editions of D&D, resembles a wargame or a boardgame in certain respects (eg it has resolution mechanics that use dice and depend upon player declarations of "moves" in the game). But it has neither (i) nor (ii). So the only way that it resemlbes a CCG are in the ways that CCGs aren't at all distinctive.

I always found it less like cards and more like Wow. Everything my character did was some sort of power with a cooldown.

Each class had a stack of cards with actions (with varying recharge rates) and combat became very min/max in that you wanted to synergize your cards (actions) with the other cards (in this case usually played by other players, sometimes by you).

At my 4e table we use character sheets. I believe there are some tables that use cards, though. I think TSR published spell cards for AD&D, didn't they? And aren't there spell cards available for 5e? After all, 5e characters, too, have abilities on varying recharge ("cooldown") rates which could easily be represented on cards if someone wanted too (or a sorcerer could use a pool of coloured tokens for sorcery points, a bard or battlemaster use a pool of dice for inspirationss or manoevre dice, etc). I don't see that 4e is very special here.

And it's been a while since I've played MtG, but (i) it doesn't have a "recharge rate" mechanic at all (but rather uses a discard/draw mechanic), and (ii) it's cards aren't devices for representing the capabilities of a character whom the player is playing in a shared fictional situation.

As for what you call "min/maxing" or "synergising", back in my day we just called that being a good player! Gary Gygax, in his PHB (published 1978), emphasises the importance of skilled play, which includes knowing how to manage the resources available to one as a player. It's true that 4e expanded the sort of resource management a wizard or cleric player has always had to engage in to include players of other classes (and 5e has continued that trend, as illustrated eg by the player of a fighter having to manage resources such as action surge, second wind and manouevre dice). But I don't see that that has anything in common with MtG.

Earlier editions of D&D, you worked with your party to overcome a foe, but it was more like "I am going to block the door so you can fireball the room". In 4th ed. it became more like "I am going to use XXX and push the target 5 feet, player 2 can then trip him with his XXX ability, so player 3 gets his bonus attack and do extra damage and then push him off the ledge".

In short, 4th ed. micro-managed combat making it far more similar to a CCG turn than prior editions of D&D.

I don't get this, for three reasons.

First, unless MtG has changed dramatically over the past decade or so, it doesn't involve pushing or tripping or ledges, because there is no positioning or geography in MtG.

Second, 4e doesn't have a canonical "trip" manoeuvre. That's an artefact of 3E. In 4e, as in 5e, the canonical notion is knocking someone prone.

Third, in 5e, why wouldn't a monk use his open hand technique to push an enemy 15 feet towards his fellow monk, who would then use her martial arts to knock the enemy prone, so that the barbarian berserker can then use his/her bonus attack from frenzy to do extra damage before pushing the enemy off the ledge?

Are you saying that you don't like gridded combat but prefer "Theatre of the Mind"? Or that you don't like to think about positioning and terrain in the way that my previous paragraph invokes them? Fair enough, but I don't see how that relates to MtG or CCGs at all; nor do I see what it has to do particularly with 4e. 3E and 5e, like 4e, include the apparatus for precise positioning. For instance, in 5e presumably it is meant to matter that an open hand monk or a Gust of Wind spell pushes an enemy up to 15 feet away, whereas a Thunderwave only pushes 10 feet. And if players of monks aren't meant to be using their abilities to knock enemies prone or push them, why are those abilities even in the game?

2nd ed pre-Combat and Tactics is the last version of D&D I can think of that is very casual about this sort of incombat positioning. (Though even it nevertheless has the occasional spell AoE, like lightning bolt's 5' wide vs 10' wide versions, which makes the details of positioning matter.)

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION], I'm not 100% sure what the significance of your laughter is - but I would have thought (from your posting history) that you might be into a monk using his open hand technique to push an enemy 15 feet towards his fellow monk, so that she can then use her martial arts to knock the enemy prone, so that the barbarian berserker can then use his/her bonus attack from frenzy to do extra damage before pushing the enemy off the ledge.

I think there are interesting discussions to be had about the relationship between mechanics and fiction in 4e, and comparing it to other versions of D&D (especially Gygax's); but in my experience none of those discussions take MtG or WoW as their starting point!

EDIT: Apparently that was my funniest post ever. Who'd have thought?