D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Celtavian]

What were the dimensions of the final room? I never did see.

This would be an interesting ruling. Pass Without Trace has all the limitations of Stealth. But Stealth does work against Blindisight as clarified by Jeremy Crawford the rules guy as long as the PCs have cover against the creature with Blindsight same as normal sight. If the pyramid acts as cover for the dragon, wouldn't it also as cover for the PCs? I would think that it would. If so, then Stealth works against Blindsight just as Crawford has clarified. You can indeed stealth against a creature with Blindsight according to the game designers as long as you have cover. As a DM you don't get to rule the dragon has enough cover to use stealth hiding behind a pyramid if the PCs don't get the same cover. Unless the dragon is sticking his head out revealing himself, then the PCs using Pass Without Trace very much get to sneak up on the pyramid and dragon. At least that is how I see it from a DM's perspective.

Pass Without Trace is another one of those annoying power spells that allows paladins in full place to have a reasonable chance of stealthing.

I also thought you couldn't stealth against a creature with Blindsight initially. Once Crawford clarified you can with the same rules for cover as regular sight, I went with it. I can sort of see what he's talking about giving the game the whole Bilbo Baggins effect Stealthing in Smaug's lair.

We would have to see the layout of the lair. If the party used Pass Without Trace and stealth, then I could see them moving so quietly the dragon would not know when to peak out from behind the pyramid to spot them first. The Devilsight warlock might pick up on him when he broke cover to do so, especially given he wouldn't hear the PCs at all and would have to risk breaking cover to use his Blindsight.

 

[Azurewraith]

It was either 300x300 or 500x500 if I remember rightly

 

[Celtavian]

It was either 300x300 or 500x500 if I remember rightly

Pyramid in the middle? Or near the back? Do you remember how high the room was? I'm assuming it was like some wide open demiplane with thematically cool pyramid in the middle of a dark, shadowy plane of limitless inky sky.

 

[Azurewraith]

I ran it as a it just stretched out for ever upwards pyramid in center. I had the same issue trying to track down the encounter posts

 

[Radaceus]

It was 300x300.

The lair of Blackrazor.

While many assume that Blackrazor is a magical sword, the reality is far different. It is actually a hole in reality – an extra planar rift – that houses a force of entropy so powerful that it is capable of annihilating whole planes. When the adventurers who raided Keraptis lair found blackrazor they placed it in a recently discovered bag of holding for safe keeping.

Unfortunately all was not as it seemed. The bag of holding was in fact a bag of devouring – and the magical resonance of the two potent forces of entropy occupying the same extra dimensional space at once broke the bonds that trapped blackrazor in its weapon form. A great and terrible evil was released into the world, and a hole was torn into reality. If blackrazor is not stopped, and the hole is not sealed, the entire multiverse is in peril.

In this room lurks the avatar of blackrazor – the greatest of the atropals and a force for entropy and the annihilation of the multiverse.

Use the stats for an Adult green dragon with the Shadow template. Increase its CR to 18 to account for this template. His lair actions take the form of grasping tendrils of shadow or billowing clouds of darkness. Like the rest of the demiplane the room is cast in a permanent magical dim light. Blackrazor currently sits atop a pyramid in the rear of this large [300' x 300'] room hidden (Perception DC 26 to detect thanks to the dim light, and the shadow template) 150’ away from the entrance and likely outside the range of the PCs vision. With his blindsight, darkvision and +12 perception he surveys the room. If he detects any intruders he waits till they have all entered the room and a PC moves more than 25 feet inside of it, and uses a lair action to trap the PCs in the room and monologue a bit. He then flies 80’ overhead breathing on them to catch as many as he can in one blast. He surveys the effect of his breath and either hides as a bonus action on his turn, or prepares to close to melee range against a weakened PC (to make use of his legendary melee attacks).

On turn two he uses another lair action to again trap the PCs for at least one turn and either breathes again (if available) or melees a weakened PC as described above. He breathes as soon as it recharges hoping to catch as many PCs as possible in the blast. If reduced to less than half his hit points, he forgoes using hit and run tactics and closes to melee, blocking the exit if at all possible.

XP to award 20,000 adjusted XP = 20,000 (Hard).

If the PCs are having an easy time of it, throw some shadows at them as well.

Rewards: On top of the pyramid lies the (now completely clear, as if made of transparent glass) greatsword formerly known as blackrazor. Devoid of the entropic spirit that once resided within, it is now little more than a hole in space, infinitely thin on its edge, and sharper than any other sword in existence. It is a vorpal greatsword, and blackrazor is not immune to its decapitation power. If blackrazor is decapitated by this weapon its life force is sucked back into the sword and this sword becomes blackrazor as per the DMG.

Development: Once blackrazor is defeated the PCs are free to explore, finding the sword if they haven’t already. Once blackrazor is defeated and a PC holds the vorpal sword, the dimensional rift expels all of its occupants out into their respective planes, and then closes for good.

 

[Celtavian]

So looking at that the dragon doesn't have cover. He's hiding in obscurement (the dim light).

You could send in your bat familiar to scout the room with his 60 foot blindsight and detect the dragon. He would have to breach his cover to kill it likely using a lair action or something similar. I imagine it depends on whether you see the lair action as requiring a willful attack by the dragon or not. Not sure how the rules see it, but I would think the dragon has to target with the lair actions.

Pass Without Trace would work to stealth to at least the darkvision or blindsight range of the dragon.

I'm not sure how the dragon has 3/4 cover if he is on top of the pyramid. It seems he would be wrapped around it lounging in the shadows. He would be able to use it as cover once he was moving.

300 feet is very large. The dragon would be in the open a great deal as well. That would be interesting.

The frightful presence tactic is fairly worthless. The paladin is immune as is anyone within 10 feet of him.

It would be an interesting fight.

 

[Radaceus]

The Dragon also has 60' blindsense, so he will see the bat as soon as it sees him. On the other hand, he can use his Detect (Legendary Action, once per turn..which he is actively doing..so passive Perception of 22 is also implied), in dim light giving him disadvantage (weird for a shadow dragon in shadow, but thems the rules) his WIS (perception) check is at is +12, with darkvision of 120' and the bats movement of 30', he will have 2 rounds to see the bat before it sees him and act accordingly...


EDIT: 2 rounds not 3 before the bat detects the dragon

 

[Radaceus]

I'm not sure how the dragon has 3/4 cover if he is on top of the pyramid.

I asked for clarity on a few of these things in the last two encounters, I forgot to bring this one up,
but, as I read it, it is the Sword Blackrazor resting on top of the pyramid, due to the mention at the end of finding the now devoid weapon on top of the pyramid. I gathered the shadow_dragon_Template_Atropal is lurking in the shadows.

 

[Flamestrike]

This would be an interesting ruling. Pass Without Trace has all the limitations of Stealth. But Stealth does work against Blindisight as clarified by Jeremy Crawford the rules guy as long as the PCs have cover against the creature with Blindsight same as normal sight.

Pass without trace grants its benefit due to (per the spell) 'shadows and magical silence'. I wouldnt let it work with a creature with Blindisight that wasnt relying on sight or hearing to percieve something (say with blindsight - with weirdly in 5E also covers other senses like smell and sonar - or tremorsense).

If the pyramid acts as cover for the dragon, wouldn't it also as cover for the PCs?

In my mind I had the dragon coiled up behind the pyramid in the shadows, peering into the room. The pyramid is in back half of chamber.

Kind of like this:



But with more of it hidden. 3/4 cover. I was pretty specific it 'surveys the room.'

I would think that it would. If so, then Stealth works against Blindsight just as Crawford has clarified. You can indeed stealth against a creature with Blindsight according to the game designers as long as you have cover.

Im not going to get into this with you, but 'Stealth' and 'Hiding' are intentionally DM dependent in 5E. That we can agree on at least I hope. I rule that you cannot 'hide' when under direct observation (as per the 5E Errata). If a creature is looking down a coriddor, you can not use stealth to approach it (well... you can, but it sees you automatically). If it's looking the other way, its fair game.

In this case the dragon relies on its blindisight (magical dragon radar and sense of smell) to scan the area 60' in front of it. It also has dsrkvision out to 120' (so can see this far) and can (obviously) hear much further.

As a DM you don't get to rule the dragon has enough cover to use stealth hiding behind a pyramid if the PCs don't get the same cover.

Watch me. I have no problem with a creature peering over cover and remaining 'hidden', particularly when its comprised of shadows, in a demiplane comprised of magical shadows. That makes perfect sense to me, and I would have no problem with a creature poking its head over cover and remaining hidden.

Rule it however you want in your game however. But dont tell me what a DM can or cannot rule.

That was the intent of the encounter by the way. It was designed around this.

We would have to see the layout of the lair. If the party used Pass Without Trace and stealth, then I could see them moving so quietly the dragon would not know when to peak out from behind the pyramid to spot them first.

Again; the dragon is already looking and listening. No-one in the party has a visual range of above 120' (the same as the dragons) and they lose the benefit of pass without trace (and can no longer hide anyway) once they reach 60' thanks to blindsight removing anything they can hide 'in'. You cant hide in dhadows when the creature sees through the shadows just fine, and being quiet doesnt help you one iota against scent and when the creature is looking right at you.

It is possible that the party could reach 120' away and (using pass without trace) the dragon fails to notice all PCs (they get the benefit of Pass without trace at this point, and get advantage to stealth thanks to the gloom) by flubbing its perception check (+12 from memory). Of cvourse, if it detects just the one PC, then its game on.

If it fails to detect a single PC, then only one PC has to crack the dragons stealth score result with a perception check of their own at this point (around 26 with advantage and expertise in stealth) and warn the others - so its possible in this instance they might detect the dragon at 120' and it not notice them in return.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Huh? How come the atropal doesnt instantly notice the owl either via opposed perception v stealth checks at 120' or when the owl flies inside the radius of its blindsight?

Pass without trace also has this line: For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage.

The Owl flies toward the Pyramid (not that it can see the pyramid at a distance of more than 120' due to the magical gloom of the demiplane, but hey) and the atropal spots it almost instantly (particulary when it leaves the 30' radius of pass without trace), and definately when it flies to within 60' of the creatures blindsight.

This triggers initiative. The whole party (probably including the owl) are now surprised. The dragon (being smart) probably figures the owl as a familiar, uses a legendary action to 'detect' the PCs scanning the room for them, then flies down and nukes them with its breath as normal during round one while the PC's are surprised.

Also. the 'shadows and magical silence' that engulf the party on account of pass without trace arent gonna help too much against a creature with blindsight that ignores both (and relies on neither visual nor auditory senses to detect things at this radius).

He's a hard bastard to sneak up on.

If the atropal attacks the Owl, then it wastes its chance at surprise doing nothing important because the party is too far away. That is precisely why you HAVE the Owl on point.

Blindsight obviously doesn't work beyond blindsight radius. I already talked about this in the post you quoted.

I'm not saying my SOP is perfect or without risk. I'm just like, "Wow. These guys are so trusting. How cute." I don't believe they are actual 13th level PCs.

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