D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Flamestrike]

I can't speculate on the resources. They would be depleted by at least half I would think depending on how many encounters ended in fights. I might actually run this at some point with my actual group just to see how things go. I can't do it with the current group because their magic items and the player rules are quite insane and would seriously skew the results. Our next campaign will be no feats or multiclassing. That would definitely be an interesting campaign to run this scenario against once they reach 13th level or so. That would be D&D by the base rules against the 6 to 8 encounter day. I think I'll go back and grab all the encounters. Then run it with the new group down the line. I'll be able to report the results against a near bog standard game, which would be more interesting to see.

If you push the 6-8/ 2 SR paradigm on them from early on (not all the time, aim for around 50 percent of the time with timed adventures - either hard time limits or soft ones - and 'you cant rest here, it's too dangerous' and 'not so random monsters') that'll make more of a difference than any banning of MCing or Feats. They'll be shocked at first, but once they get used to it, you'll find them conserving resources and avoiding novas and the game will balance a treat.

Also - design encounter specfically to defeat the players tactics from time to time. It mizes things up and forces the players to adapt.

 

[Flamestrike]

That approach doesn't scale. Good thing WotC doesn't write their adventures to be run by Chris Perkins, or there'd only be one group who could play Curse of Strahd at a time.

There's really no point in writing up detailed encounters and posting them on the Internet unless you also invest the effort in making them accessible to other DMs. I think you tried to do this, but a recurring theme of this thread is all these unwritten assumptions and house rules which makes these encounters not actually work except at your own table. Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Design Debate: Flamestrike's PCs against 6-8 encounters run by Flamestrike"?

There are no house rules in here at all mate. A few rulings here and there based on different interpretations of what constistutes 'sufficiently challenge' or 'hiding' or how summoned/ created NPCs act or think, or judgement calls in the design of the monsters for CR or the encounter environments etc, or how I would run an encounter should I be DMing it (which generally comes out tougher than when pseudo PCs run themselves through it).

But not a single house rule. Its as RAW as you can get (with optional MCing, feats, magic items added in as well).

Obviously with a permissive DM like Celt you would have an easier time of it. I prefer to run my games a little differently, and mix it up and be more proactive in an effort to challenge the players. My rulings as a DM have 'challenge' as a component when I consider how to rule. Fairness, challenge, balance, verisimitude, fun, and rule of cool all kind of rolled into one.

 

[Celtavian]

Im sure your familiar is none too happy to hear this. It feels pain you know. I would definately have the spirits get word of this unfeeling caster who tosses familiars to their deaths like an emotionless monster.

You might find yourself with some uppity familiars (which I would roleplay as NPCs bound to follow your orders 'creatively' of course).

I use my familiar as I wish. I would never play with a DM that tried to impose limitations on a spell that is already nearly useless.

A gamist reason for treating ones summoned pet like a disposable piece of crap. Nice.

D&D is a game. Even if you wanted to discuss non-gamist thinking, it would be very apparent a familiar that couldn't survive adventuring is nearly useless and would not be an often used spell by casters.

Again, Id make your familiars quite obstinate or annoying until you treated them a bit nicer. Expect a lot of DM backchat (as your familiar of course). Maybe some crying too. Pathetic sobbing. Maybe one might insult you a bit. Another might be quite stubborn.

None of which I would care about. It's a disposable asset that is effectively immortal. It cannot die. Better it feel pain than I feel pain since I am not immortal. A familiar that didn't understand this would be nearly useless.

I know this is probably alien to how you play, but I like three dimensional games and to encourage players to treat NPCs and cohorts/ companions/ familliars as more than just expenable gamist force multipliers with zero personality like you do.

I like spells to work as they are built to work. The 5E find familiar spell is meant to summon a weak, disposable familiar that can't die, but also isn't very strong, for use by the caster. Now if I were a warlock with a special familiar, then I'd play along.

That said, I already have a hook for your character. The spirit king is sick to death of you summoning his minions and treating them like disposable crap. Theyve been complaining about you for some time now. Accordingly, he's planned some... revenge for you... (cue the next adventure).

Not my cup of tea. Make the find familiar spell more useful or don't expect a player to play it as other than it is: a disposable summon like conjure animals or conjure elemental. The 5E version of find familiar creates a familiar that dies if it gets looked at wrong. The way you want to play it, I'd having the spirit king bothering me because the dog killed my familiar when it was wandering around my domicile. I would not spend my time protecting some marshmallow, useless familiar. They die to opportunity attacks from kobolds or flumphs.

If you really want familiars not to be disposable, then how about you spend the time creating a spell that makes them more useful long-term with better survivability rather than penalize the player for using them as the spell encourages.

 

[Celtavian]

There are no house rules in here at all mate. A few rulings here and there based on different interpretations of what constistutes 'sufficiently challenge' or 'hiding' or how summoned/ created NPCs act or think, or judgement calls in the design of the monsters for CR or the encounter environments etc, or how I would run an encounter should I be DMing it (which generally comes out tougher than when pseudo PCs run themselves through it).

Besides the environment you made up. That is a house rule.

But not a single house rule. Its as RAW as you can get (with optional MCing, feats, magic items added in as well).

Except for the environment. It's a 9th level effect you made up. It's not from the books as near as I can tell.

Obviously with a permissive DM like Celt you would have an easier time of it. I prefer to run my games a little differently, and mix it up and be more proactive in an effort to challenge the players. My rulings as a DM have 'challenge' as a component when I consider how to rule. Fairness, challenge, balance, verisimitude, fun, and rule of cool all kind of rolled into one.

More insults. Always fun when a guy attempts to come off as polite, but has been tossing insults nearly the entire time that people give him a pass for.

I'm a permissive DM, am I. Glad you know that from this brief interaction on the message boards. I tend to run things by the rules...RAW as you say. Any house rules I use, I run by my players in advance and get them to sign off on. Usually game modifications to limit something that is causing problems, so I don't have to make up environments that are harsher than the monsters within them.

I've also done some major reworks on monsters to enhance their lethality. You know, like us permissive DMs do. Of course, you're the perfect DM that never makes any mistakes and runs everything by the rules so it all works perfectly. I keep forgetting that.

Btw, I made Pathfinder work past 17th level. It took some doing, but I got it done. Same as I'll make 5E work the way I want it to work after I spend more time reworking some things. It will be more lethal as I prefer.

 

[Flamestrike]

Besides the environment you made up. That is a house rule.



Except for the environment. It's a 9th level effect you made up. It's not from the books as near as I can tell.



More insults. Always fun when a guy attempts to come off as polite, but has been tossing insults nearly the entire time that people give him a pass for.

I'm a permissive DM, am I. Glad you know that from this brief interaction on the message boards. I tend to run things by the rules...RAW as you say. Any house rules I use, I run by my players in advance and get them to sign off on. Usually game modifications to limit something that is causing problems, so I don't have to make up environments that are harsher than the monsters within them.

I've also done some major reworks on monsters to enhance their lethality. You know, like us permissive DMs do. Of course, you're the perfect DM that never makes any mistakes and runs everything by the rules so it all works perfectly. I keep forgetting that.

Btw, I made Pathfinder work past 17th level. It took some doing, but I got it done. Same as I'll make 5E work the way I want it to work after I spend more time reworking some things. It will be more lethal as I prefer.

I literally have no idea how you took 'permissive' to be an insult.

 

[Jaelommiss]

I'm not sure that Find Familiar would be all that useful for scouting.

I found nothing to indicate that its Intelligence is anything but that of the form it takes, which is only 2 for an owl. I also found no mention of the caster knowing when it is slain. Sure, you can use telepathically while within 100 feet, but outside of that you have no way to communicate with it. Whether it's dead, captured, or just munching on a mouse it caught won't be known until it gets within range again.

Even dismissing it and resummoning it will only tell you that it didn't rematerialize (because dismissing it failed, because it was dead). If it died after eating a toxic lizard you get the same information as if it were slain by a wolf or if it were slain by a dragon. Only if you spend an hour to resummon it AND it saw what killed it AND it manages to identify what killed it (again, 2 Int) would you know what is up ahead.

Given its low intelligence I'm not even sure that you could give it complex commands. "Fly ahead, then come back and tell us what you saw" is probably about the best it could manage. Any mention of distance would be far too difficult for it to understand.

I would allow constant micromanaging of its actions while within telepathy range, but outside of that it just doesn't have the capacity for detailed commands.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm not sure that Find Familiar would be all that useful for scouting.

I found nothing to indicate that its Intelligence is anything but that of the form it takes, which is only 2 for an owl. I also found no mention of the caster knowing when it is slain. Sure, you can use telepathically while within 100 feet, but outside of that you have no way to communicate with it. Whether it's dead, captured, or just munching on a mouse it caught won't be known until it gets within range again.

Even dismissing it and resummoning it will only tell you that it didn't rematerialize (because dismissing it failed, because it was dead). If it died after eating a toxic lizard you get the same information as if it were slain by a wolf or if it were slain by a dragon. Only if you spend an hour to resummon it AND it saw what killed it AND it manages to identify what killed it (again, 2 Int) would you know what is up ahead.

Given its low intelligence I'm not even sure that you could give it complex commands. "Fly ahead, then come back and tell us what you saw" is probably about the best it could manage. Any mention of distance would be far too difficult for it to understand.

I would allow constant micromanaging of its actions while within telepathy range, but outside of that it just doesn't have the capacity for detailed commands.

It isn't all that useful for long-range scouting. (Unlike, say, a Chain Warlock's Sprite familiar which actually has a mind.) It's useful for short-range scouting and being the point man. "Hey, there's an opening ahead into what looks like a big room. Athena, fly ahead and check it out!" The party waits some distance away (say, 70' away down the corridor) until Athena enters the room. Her master can look through her eyes as she flies around just inside the room--she can fly just under 70' up and still remain within range, but 30' or 40' up will be plenty. I don't remember the environmental effects in play or whether she'd be able to see the pyramid with her 120' Darkvision from the entrance, but it doesn't matter--at least she's validated that there's nothing waiting right there to chomp the party, so they can afford to move gradually closer while she acts as point to give them 160' or so advance warning (vision + telepathy range) of any enemies. If she sees the sword gleaming atop the pyramid, her master can command her to grab it and come back. If she's not back within ten or twenty seconds, then even if no one heard any squeaking sounds of Athena getting eaten by a shadow dragon, at least you know there's something scary out there, and maybe it's time for you to withdraw back into the corridor and pass out some Bardic Inspiration Dice or cast a prep spell like Protection From Evil or Leomund's Tiny Hut or Animate Objects, and come back in a minute loaded for bear.

TL;DR the object of a point man is to improve your positioning and action economy. It's not for extended long-range solo scouting.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm not sure that Find Familiar would be all that useful for scouting.

I found nothing to indicate that its Intelligence is anything but that of the form it takes, which is only 2 for an owl. I also found no mention of the caster knowing when it is slain. Sure, you can use telepathically while within 100 feet, but outside of that you have no way to communicate with it. Whether it's dead, captured, or just munching on a mouse it caught won't be known until it gets within range again.

Even dismissing it and resummoning it will only tell you that it didn't rematerialize (because dismissing it failed, because it was dead). If it died after eating a toxic lizard you get the same information as if it were slain by a wolf or if it were slain by a dragon. Only if you spend an hour to resummon it AND it saw what killed it AND it manages to identify what killed it (again, 2 Int) would you know what is up ahead.

Given its low intelligence I'm not even sure that you could give it complex commands. "Fly ahead, then come back and tell us what you saw" is probably about the best it could manage. Any mention of distance would be far too difficult for it to understand.

I would allow constant micromanaging of its actions while within telepathy range, but outside of that it just doesn't have the capacity for detailed commands.

If it doesn't come back, it's dead or something has it. You give it a command to come back and let you know what it finds. You can telepathy with it when it returns. Either way it gives you some kind of warning. It's the main use of the spell at high level. Scouting or delivering one touch spell and likely dying.

We had a warlock try to use an invisible imp to provide the Help action. At higher level even an invisible imp didn't survive long. Hitting invisible creatures with low AC and hit points is extremely easy.

5E find familiar is fairly useless past the low levels. A disposable summon that provides extrasensory perception or a one shot warning system. They really nerfed the hell out of familiars in 5E and made them almost pointless. Unless of course you enjoy role-playing cuddly little creatures like Flamestrike's players would enjoy. Not my cup of tea, but some people do enjoy it.

 

[Azurewraith]

Familiarmon gotta summon them all!

 

[Celtavian]

I've been analyzing that final encounter. It's an extremely hard win that would require some luck. The dragon has too many advantages. It has a sight advantage on everyone but one character. It has a time advantage due to the counting clock, so you can't wait it out. If I were running it, the dragon would hit and run waiting for its breath weapon to recharge and using its lair action to drain hit points. It wouldn't even bother entering melee. It would wait until it necrotized everyone's flesh, then exalt. If you can't bring the dragon/atropal to the ground, it will be extremely difficult to win. Maybe Hemlock's summon tactics have a shot. I don't see much of a chance other than perhaps some creative use of wall of force or some lucky missed saves very quickly that eat through its Legendary Resistance.

If you all you did was have the dragon come in, blast with breath weapon, and lair action, then take off out of darkvision range moving around the area, it would be difficult to maintain a constant stream of attack. You would probably have to focus on protecting the warlock and hope she could bring it down fast enough eldritch blast since she is the only one that could consistently see it. If the cleric got lucky with Divine Intervention and the gods sent him something useful, that could help as well. You're looking at a roughly 1 in 8 chance.

So Hemlock, how do you stop this thing from moving around and hitting you like a mobile artillery platform, then flying into the shadows to hide as a bonus action from nearly everyone but your warlock? How do you close the vision superiority gap when you can't use light spells? Even now in my Out of the Abyss campaign, if most of the PCs weren't drow, they would have been screwed many, many times. Now the party's vision is even more limited against a creature that lives in shadow, how do you pull off that win if you play the Atropal/Shadow Dragon in a ruthless and ideal manner?