D&D 5E Rogues without Darkvision

[FormerlyHemlock]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm curious to hear if others have shared my experiences:

I've been in a couple of campaigns containing rogues without darkvision. Watching these guys try to perform their scouting duties while holding torches aloft to light the way was pathetic enough that, as a DM, I was sorely tempted to make the monsters pretend not to see them--like when you play hide-and-seek with a four-year-old kid:


Beholder: Now where could that little rascal be hiding?!?
Rogue with Torch: <high-pitched tittering>


After letting this go on for a couple of levels, my compassionate nature got the better of me, so the group just happened to stumble upon some Goggles of Night.

In the group that I play with, rogues always play an instrumental role by furtively moving out ahead of the party to gather reconnaissance about enemy troop dispositions and the like. Is this a fairly common practice in other groups? If so, do you find that characters without darkvision are at a pronounced disadvantage? Call it a failure of imagination on my part, but I'm at a loss to figure out how a night-blind rogue might cope.

The way I see it, you've got a few options:

(1) Get access to the Darkvision spell. Arcane Tricksters can cast this on themselves.

(2) Leave your torch at home and rely on your hearing/touch/smell. My players did this in our (abortive) Underdark campaign. It helped that I ruled, based on PHB text, that "Darkness" may make you functionally blind by PHB standards but doesn't necessarily mean you can't see anything at all. After all, by PHB rules, a night without an exceptionally bright full moon is darkness, not dim light, and yet you can still navigate visually to some extent, even away from the lights of civilization. A Rogue with Skulker and/or Perception Expertise might be just fine in these conditions.

(3) Scout in the daytime, and/or let someone else following behind you hold the torch/cast Dancing Lights. (In the latter case you can only scout a hundred or so feet ahead of the party, so you're more of a point man than a true scout.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Darkvision upgrades "dim light" to "bright light", so I think that's probably what most creatures shoot for. Dimly glowing braziers, phosphorescent fungi, etc.

There are still advantages to having actual bright light, e.g. at your chokepoints and kill zones, so the guards can perfectly see anyone crossing the kill zone even if they are out of darkvision range themselves. For example, if you're a hobgoblin trying to defend your fortress against drow, you want fortified positions in darkness and bright light about 150' in front of that fortified position, so that when the drow come calling, you can see them and they can't see you, and you can shoot them up at advantage (and from behind 3/4 cover) instead of disadvantage.

In that particular example, dim light would do as well as bright light because dim light affects only Perception checks, not attack rolls, but bright light reduces the chances of the drow being able to sneak through the kill zone without getting shot at.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks, Rhenny. One of my players, a halfling rogue, was miserable enough that he was planning a two-level dip into the Warlock class--not for any roleplaying reasons, but simply to pick up Devil's Sight. This was a guy who typically wouldn't do things like that, so I have to believe that he was pretty miserable. I guess it didn't help that he was constantly being mocked by the wood elf ranger*. He found some Goggles of Night in his Christmas stocking before he could sell his soul.

By 3rd level, Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Shadow Monks can all cast Darkvision (8 hours, no concentration). By 5th level Rangers can too. Was there really no one in the whole party who was willing to help him do his scouting job? Or did they just not know about the Darkvision spell or couldn't afford to learn it?

 

[CapnZapp]

At the risk of stating the obvious, in real life nobody has darkvision, and people have still managed to perform stealthy reconnaissance missions from time to time.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is not real life.

 

[CapnZapp]

Because in The Hobbit, Bilbo definitely doesn't. The entirety of "Riddles in the Dark" takes place in, you guessed it, the dark.

Still missing the point.

Bilbo didn't have to live in a world where most of his friends could see in the dark much better than him.

What we're discussing here is a particular 5e thing: that ONLY humans and halflings go blind in the darkness.

What the OP is asking about is how it feels stupid to select halfling when you want to play a Rogue, and how he doesn't like that feeling.

Bringing up real life or middle earth is simply irrelevant. This is D&D.

Not only is it a different campaign world (or set of worlds), it's a game where you have choices.

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't generally find that 5e Rogues scout ahead in dungeons, no. If you want scouting, a wizard familiar is probably a much safer bet.

I belive this is only making it worse. He WANTS rogues to spy ahead.

The grim truth is that per the PHB, it's not merely true that there are "a few" better choices fir this than "halfling rogue".

The bitter pill is to realize there are *few worse* build options! Almost *any* race does scouting in the darkness better than halfling!

THAT'S what bothering the OP.

 

[CapnZapp]

At least a rogue can now fully work in dim light. In 3e a rogue in dim light could not use sneak attack at all

Now it is up to the DM to not have only pitch black dungeons. And as others have told, you don't have pitch black dungeons all the time. If your group uses a torch there is an area of dim light you can gide in.

Problem is, not all DM's will oblige with perfectly lit dungeons.

I call it an unreasonable expectation. D&D is a game where a successful scout needs darkvision.

Your suggestion about the torch is flummoxing. You do not carry light when you scout ahead. Unless you WANT the monsters to see you far far before you see them...

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree that an all darkvision party has a massive advantage. I have found it turns the game into a weird kind of assassins/ambush theme.

Personally I think darkvision should be removed from the game. I prefer darkness to mean something, for the party to be cautiously moving through dungeons and dark forests with torches and lanterns, knowing that beyond their vision there might be monsters watching them. Darkvision is for monsters.

I am playing a low magic game now with humans only, and the atmosphere is definitely different, and personally I prefer it.

As for how thieves work without darkvision - its perfectly fine, they can hide and scout as usual during the day, and at night they either dont or have to be much more careful and use the enemies light source against them. Completely dark underground places are actually very rare - since elves, dwarves etc all need lights too, most places are lit. Even monsterous humanoids still tend to light their complexes dimly, just so they can see their mates across the eating hall. 60 ft darkvision is very short after all.

Having no dark vision does make the game harder, and more realistic. Both good reasons to remove it, imo. In fact I cant think of any good reason to keep dark vision.

edit: sorry, I meant PC based darkvision should be removed from the game. Monsters should have it.

I kind of agree.

Just switching Elves back to night vision changes the balance, I've found, sufficiently for all-darkvision parties to be much more rare.

Which really is all you need. Banning darkvision entirely is not necessary in my opinion. Just all-darkvision parties.

In my opinion the 5e designers woefully underestimated the consequences of switching Elves over to the "dark team". It really creates a kind of group presence to avoid humans and halflings, which I'm not used to. It feels wonky.

"Okay, so you want to be human. Then choose half elf and downplay your elvish traits! And you, I'll buy your pizza if you choose Gnome instead of halfling. Take one for the team!"

Yes, in sufficiently optimizing groups, identifying humans and halflings as a weak link happened quickly.

PS. I'm DM'ing Out of the Abyss.

So all well-meaning advice to expect lighted environments is kindly asked to FUHGEDDABOUDIT.

It's the Underdark and it's dark, baby. For fifteen levels straight. Yeah.

 

[CapnZapp]

By 3rd level, Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Shadow Monks can all cast Darkvision (8 hours, no concentration). By 5th level Rangers can too. Was there really no one in the whole party who was willing to help him do his scouting job? Or did they just not know about the Darkvision spell or couldn't afford to learn it?

Sorry but Darkvision costs you your concentration slot.

Much cheaper to ask the halfling player to switch to a Darkvision race.

No spellcaster wants to spend his concentration on shoring up a handicap, especially on a character that insists on scouting ahead despite that handicap.

Much better then to ask the halfling rogue to hide in the shadows *behind* the party and backstab anything that engages the party in combat.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sorry but Darkvision costs you your concentration slot.

Much cheaper to ask the halfling player to switch to a Darkvision race.

No spellcaster wants to spend his concentration on shoring up a handicap, especially on a character that insists on scouting ahead despite that handicap.

Much better then to ask the halfling rogue to hide in the shadows *behind* the party and backstab anything that engages the party in combat.

Not in my copy of the PHB. The duration is just "8 hours", no concentration required. What does yours say?