D&D 5E Can someone clarify the mechanics of surprise for me?

[I'm A Banana]

I agree with you conceptualization, but not your approach, as it can lead to being able to get of 3 attacks before the target has a chance to act. I rather prefer, in those cases, just to set the initiative of the ambusher to go first, and roll from there. This is just an automatic win of the ability check, and, since you as the DM have determined there's no uncertainty in who goes first, is still within the spirit of the rules.

However, as I've come to this conclusion while running a game, I haven't made any changes in my current game and still roll initiative and try to muddle through the weird corner cases as best as I can.

That sounds like a fair approach to me, too. I personally don't have a major problem with the character possibly getting off a reaction attack + a round of attacks if they spend the time and effort and risk of (1) separating from their party, (2) succeeding on a Stealth check, and (3) being comfortable with waiting until the trigger activates, to have the chance of (4) rolling higher on initiative. It's kind of a lot of hoops to jump through, and a lot of risk, so I'm OK with a pretty big potential payoff there.

Sorry, I'm not following.

I'm treating "Surprised" is a technical term in 5e when it comes to the Alert feat. "Surprised" means you can't take an action on your first turn. If you're immune to surprise, it doesn't mean you notice or are aware of things you otherwise wouldn't notice or be aware of, it just means that you can take an action on your first turn. (It also means assassins get their benefit against you). With the "readied action" model of an ambush, this still gives the ambusher some benefit for successfully going through all that preparation (the readied-action attack), and still gives the Alert character a benefit for that feat (they don't miss their first turn in combat, and if the ambusher is an assassin, their feature gets negated).

 

[abirdcall]

I'm treating "Surprised" is a technical term in 5e when it comes to the Alert feat. "Surprised" means you can't take an action on your first turn. If you're immune to surprise, it doesn't mean you notice or are aware of things you otherwise wouldn't notice or be aware of, it just means that you can take an action on your first turn. (It also means assassins get their benefit against you). With the "readied action" model of an ambush, this still gives the ambusher some benefit for successfully going through all that preparation (the readied-action attack), and still gives the Alert character a benefit for that feat (they don't miss their first turn in combat, and if the ambusher is an assassin, their feature gets negated).

I don't think I understand the 'readied action' thing you are speaking of.

Readying is an action you can do on your turn. You can't do it before initiative is called, you need to have a turn first. This is because every character would then constantly be readying actions. It doesn't actually get anyone anywhere.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Ah, I've been blocked by ad_hoc. I don't know why, but it's making this thread very hard to follow and why I keep getting bounced to the top when I check for new posts. I suppose I could just read the thread on tapatalk, which doesn't do the forced ignoring of people I haven't chosen to ignore and doesn't screw up the post count in the thread.

Can I again register my supreme dislike of forcing me to ignore other users?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't think I understand the 'readied action' thing you are speaking of.

Readying is an action you can do on your turn. You can't do it before initiative is called, you need to have a turn first. This is because every character would then constantly be readying actions. It doesn't actually get anyone anywhere.

The line between "initiative" and "not initiative" isn't necessarily a hard one. The actions you can perform on your turn can also be performed when you aren't tracking turns - you presumably let players use items, hide, and cast spells when they do not have a "turn," so extending that idea to "being ready to attack for a trigger" isn't a major leap. In this view, Initiative doesn't make new actions possible, it simply orders the actions of people all trying to go at the same time. This aligns with the principle of using the rules to adjudicate what happens in the fiction (as opposed to using the rules to determine what is possible in the fiction).

It's not the case that a character would be constantly readying actions, because there is an opportunity cost - namely, the other actions you could be performing. Someone readying an attack isn't, say, on high alert (dodge), looking for danger (making a Perception check), or, most commonly, moving quickly through the space (Dash).

The common ambush scenario would go:
1 - Ambusher moves into position and hides (uses the Hide action, rolls a stealth check)
2 - A few seconds later, Ambusher readies an action to shoot the first guard she sees with her bow.
3 - Time passes. A guard somewhere is spending time moving, and then making a Perception check, and repeating that process. Ambusher essentially keeps performing the same action - no movement, ready an attack.
4 - A guard enters the Ambusher's vision. Triggered attack goes off. The guard was using his action to make Perception checks, so nothing changes. (If the Ambusher wants to wait, she can - the guard makes a Perception check where he stands, and then we go to the Ambusher's turn)
5 - I check the stealth roll vs. the guard's passive Perception to determine if the guard is surprised. Regardless, initiative is rolled.

Hypothetically, if we have a guard who is lousy at his job and wants to ready an attack with his crossbow instead of trying to, you know, keep a look out, it would flow almost exactly the same, except the guard's triggered attack would go off after the Ambusher's attack if the guard was not surprised (and if he WAS surprised, he can't take reactions, so he loses his readied attack). This would be a rather poor tactical choice for the guard, even if the guard had Alert - the guard's job isn't murder, it's to keep a look out for trespassers (and call for reinforcements if he sees any). Readying an action to call out the alarm would be a better idea, but might also detract from his ability to keep a watch by making active Perception checks (and thus hoping to get lucky).

 

[Shiroiken]

The line between "initiative" and "not initiative" isn't necessarily a hard one. The actions you can perform on your turn can also be performed when you aren't tracking turns - you presumably let players use items, hide, and cast spells when they do not have a "turn," so extending that idea to "being ready to attack for a trigger" isn't a major leap. In this view, Initiative doesn't make new actions possible, it simply orders the actions of people all trying to go at the same time. This aligns with the principle of using the rules to adjudicate what happens in the fiction (as opposed to using the rules to determine what is possible in the fiction).

It's not the case that a character would be constantly readying actions, because there is an opportunity cost - namely, the other actions you could be performing. Someone readying an attack isn't, say, on high alert (dodge), looking for danger (making a Perception check), or, most commonly, moving quickly through the space (Dash).

The common ambush scenario would go:
1 - Ambusher moves into position and hides (uses the Hide action, rolls a stealth check)
2 - A few seconds later, Ambusher readies an action to shoot the first guard she sees with her bow.
3 - Time passes. A guard somewhere is spending time moving, and then making a Perception check, and repeating that process. Ambusher essentially keeps performing the same action - no movement, ready an attack.
4 - A guard enters the Ambusher's vision. Triggered attack goes off. The guard was using his action to make Perception checks, so nothing changes. (If the Ambusher wants to wait, she can - the guard makes a Perception check where he stands, and then we go to the Ambusher's turn)
5 - I check the stealth roll vs. the guard's passive Perception to determine if the guard is surprised. Regardless, initiative is rolled.

Hypothetically, if we have a guard who is lousy at his job and wants to ready an attack with his crossbow instead of trying to, you know, keep a look out, it would flow almost exactly the same, except the guard's triggered attack would go off after the Ambusher's attack if the guard was not surprised (and if he WAS surprised, he can't take reactions, so he loses his readied attack). This would be a rather poor tactical choice for the guard, even if the guard had Alert - the guard's job isn't murder, it's to keep a look out for trespassers (and call for reinforcements if he sees any). Readying an action to call out the alarm would be a better idea, but might also detract from his ability to keep a watch by making active Perception checks (and thus hoping to get lucky).

One problem, if I understand you. Once you make an attack, you are no longer Hidden. If you are not Hidden, then you cannot surprise the target. Therefor, you've just set up a scenario where Alert is worthless, because no on is ever surprised by an ambush (they just suck up the readied attack instead).

 

[I'm A Banana]

One problem, if I understand you. Once you make an attack, you are no longer Hidden. If you are not Hidden, then you cannot surprise the target. Therefor, you've just set up a scenario where Alert is worthless, because no on is ever surprised by an ambush (they just suck up the readied attack instead).

The original attack was launched while Hidden, and that's what might've Surprised the target. Once the target is Surprised, it's just a matter of rolling initiative to see how long that surprise lasts.

For an Alert guard who is spending his action making Perception checks, this means that you always have your reactions and, after the initial attack, you can take your turn normally.

For a guard without Alert who is doing the same, this means that you are Surprised for the first attack, and until the end of your first turn after the first attack (which may or may not be before the Ambusher gets to go again).

 

[Shiroiken]

The original attack was launched while Hidden, and that's what might've Surprised the target. Once the target is Surprised, it's just a matter of rolling initiative to see how long that surprise lasts.

For an Alert guard who is spending his action making Perception checks, this means that you always have your reactions and, after the initial attack, you can take your turn normally.

For a guard without Alert who is doing the same, this means that you are Surprised for the first attack, and until the end of your first turn after the first attack (which may or may not be before the Ambusher gets to go again).

Ok, so you're having the Attack cause Surprise rather than being Hidden? Interesting houserule.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

That sounds like a fair approach to me, too. I personally don't have a major problem with the character possibly getting off a reaction attack + a round of attacks if they spend the time and effort and risk of (1) separating from their party, (2) succeeding on a Stealth check, and (3) being comfortable with waiting until the trigger activates, to have the chance of (4) rolling higher on initiative. It's kind of a lot of hoops to jump through, and a lot of risk, so I'm OK with a pretty big potential payoff there.



I'm treating "Surprised" is a technical term in 5e when it comes to the Alert feat. "Surprised" means you can't take an action on your first turn. If you're immune to surprise, it doesn't mean you notice or are aware of things you otherwise wouldn't notice or be aware of, it just means that you can take an action on your first turn. (It also means assassins get their benefit against you). With the "readied action" model of an ambush, this still gives the ambusher some benefit for successfully going through all that preparation (the readied-action attack), and still gives the Alert character a benefit for that feat (they don't miss their first turn in combat, and if the ambusher is an assassin, their feature gets negated).

I was was playing in your group, I'd make sure to pick up the Pass Without Trace spell, with the +10 stealth bonus from that it would be easy to move the entire party into an ambush position and having everyone get a round of attacks off. We'd be able to win fights before we even roll initiative!

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Its a subtle, but important to understand what "passive perception" actually means, difference; passive perception applies because creatures are assumed to be constantly looking for things while their eyes are open.

It doesn't specifically state so in the rules, though.

The relevant part would be:

Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching.

They could have opted to write something along the lines of "Because creatures are assumed to be constantly looking for things while their eyes are open, passive perception applies." but they specifically say "Even if they aren't searching".

But it comes down to the same: Searching for threats is automatic / not needed, therefore using perception to see something is a continuous task, thus the passive value applies rather than actively rolling for it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I was was playing in your group, I'd make sure to pick up the Pass Without Trace spell, with the +10 stealth bonus from that it would be easy to move the entire party into an ambush position and having everyone get a round of attacks off. We'd be able to win fights before we even roll initiative!

I've got an earth genasi in my Curse of Strahd group now.

There's currently zero problem with the party making ambushes.

White room analysis typically fails to take into account the actual variety of encounter types that happen in actual play.

Ok, so you're having the Attack cause Surprise rather than being Hidden? Interesting houserule.

It makes a lot more narrative sense to have an actual action cause Surprise rather than just existing at a location.

It doesn't specifically state so in the rules, though.

The closest it gets is when describing the Stealth skill and how to hide, it mentions that creatures (specifically in combat) are assumed to be staying alert for signs of danger at all times, or something along those lines. So it gets close.