D&D 5E Anyone else hoping that the next campaign book WotC releases is 15th to 20th levels?

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...on the other hand, you say he was doing it wrong.

I've said no such thing.

How was he supposed to know that? Where's the guidance beyond learning the hard way?

I will agree that there certainly could be better guidance regarding what the results of choosing to use particular optional rules will be. I can't say that I agree, however, that such guidance is a higher priority for word-count than other options are, so I feel that the books presenting options with little to no guidance and assuming that the people choosing to enable the various options are capable of realizing the effects of doing so and acting accordingly (which you refer to as "learning the hard way").

Especially because the word-count required to explain each option's effects upon even a few of the myriad play-styles out in the world would take hundreds of pages.

Is it really fair to say what's available is actually sufficient?

In regards to playing characters beyond 20th level? Yes. Just as fair as it is to say what's available isn't actually sufficient. Subjective statements are cool like that.

BTW, he said "halfway optimized" - you seem to assume that he said "fully optimized".

I did not make that assumption.

 

[discosoc]

I imagine the lack of high level adventures has more to do with the difficulty in coming up with an interesting conflict that isn't trivialized by the player's access to high level abilities, magic, and contacts, AND is something that they can package neatly in as a sourcebook meant to fit into existing campaigns.

If you really think about it, there are very few examples of good stories and/or movies where you have a group of adventurers dealing in "high level" challenges. Like, Lord of the Rings would have been trivialized by most character classes at roughly level 8 or 9, if not sooner. Even stories where the heroes have amazing abilities relative to the rest of the world, like The Wheel of Time, often involve mostly politics or intrigue, with actual battles tending to involve either opposing armies led be the heroes or epic one on one showdowns where most of the fight is dialogue between attacks. These are simply not the kinds of game options that fit within the modern-day Adventure League style paradigm.

 

[nswanson27]

I imagine the lack of high level adventures has more to do with the difficulty in coming up with an interesting conflict that isn't trivialized by the player's access to high level abilities, magic, and contacts, AND is something that they can package neatly in as a sourcebook meant to fit into existing campaigns.

If you really think about it, there are very few examples of good stories and/or movies where you have a group of adventurers dealing in "high level" challenges. Like, Lord of the Rings would have been trivialized by most character classes at roughly level 8 or 9, if not sooner. Even stories where the heroes have amazing abilities relative to the rest of the world, like The Wheel of Time, often involve mostly politics or intrigue, with actual battles tending to involve either opposing armies led be the heroes or epic one on one showdowns where most of the fight is dialogue between attacks. These are simply not the kinds of game options that fit within the modern-day Adventure League style paradigm.

But this just circles back to previous arguments about WotC not making the game truly accessible 1-20.

 

[nswanson27]

I've said no such thing.
I will agree that there certainly could be better guidance regarding what the results of choosing to use particular optional rules will be. I can't say that I agree, however, that such guidance is a higher priority for word-count than other options are, so I feel that the books presenting options with little to no guidance and assuming that the people choosing to enable the various options are capable of realizing the effects of doing so and acting accordingly (which you refer to as "learning the hard way").

Well I guess it doesn't seem like that's a reasonable thing to assume someone is just going to do without a lot trial-and-error. Actually rather than a guide of how to do it, it would be nice to have an example of how it's done. Like, a published Tier 4 storyline.

 

[discosoc]

But this just circles back to previous arguments about WotC not making the game truly accessible 1-20.

No argument from me there. WotC obviously wanted to make 5e accessible for the whole 20 levels, based on dev comments about realizing how games tend to end after about level 10, and just looking at the XP advancement chart that shows the levels 11-20 speeding up after slowing down in the 4-10 range.

The mistake they seemed to have made is rooted in not adjusting Wizard spell progression. You look at those spells, and 5th level wizards gain access to 3rd level spells, which are the ones that really start to break through combat ceilings. But rather than messing with that sacred cow, they chose to bring other classes in line with that kind of 5th level power, which just created a bit of power inflation.

I'd fully expect the next edition or revision to try and address this more by spreading out some of the ability milestones out a bit, but they definitely messed up the very levels they wanted to make accessible. I'd personally rather see an overhaul of the 1-20 level range, reverting it back to the original (i think) 1-10, and have levels 11-20 translate into other types of character rewards (possibly not even class related). Maybe access to feats, or the boons mentioned in the DM guide.

 

[robus]

The page and a half of epic level options in the DMG barely counts as support, and there are very few monsters in the MM that can stand up to even a halfway optimized party that uses feats/MCing/artifacts/epic boons/UA material. At 20th level my group took out Orcus (from OotA) in 2 rounds - very anticlimactic, especially considering the lead up to the fight involved visiting the Far Realm and time travel.

Yes, I would prefer a 100% DIY game, but I do not have the time for that anymore. If they are going to make a game with levels 1-20, they should support all 20 of those levels. Right now only 1-10 has any real support and it's frustrating.

I'm planning a similar climactic battle. Was the issue too few hit points? Did he have minions to weaken them first? Some details would be great thanks

 

[robus]

I imagine the lack of high level adventures has more to do with the difficulty in coming up with an interesting conflict that isn't trivialized by the player's access to high level abilities, magic, and contacts, AND is something that they can package neatly in as a sourcebook meant to fit into existing campaigns.

If you really think about it, there are very few examples of good stories and/or movies where you have a group of adventurers dealing in "high level" challenges. Like, Lord of the Rings would have been trivialized by most character classes at roughly level 8 or 9, if not sooner. Even stories where the heroes have amazing abilities relative to the rest of the world, like The Wheel of Time, often involve mostly politics or intrigue, with actual battles tending to involve either opposing armies led be the heroes or epic one on one showdowns where most of the fight is dialogue between attacks. These are simply not the kinds of game options that fit within the modern-day Adventure League style paradigm.

3 adventures so far would fit a high level scenario surely? Tiamat is unleashed and needs to be sent back, the demons in OotA could battled directly instead of by proxy and the SKT could certainly scale to high level. So I don't think lack of material is an issue?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Like, a published Tier 4 storyline.

If a published story-line that covers the first three tiers, introduces various setting elements, NPCs, and story hooks that it doesn't wrap up all in a neat bow by leaving no unanswered questions by its end doesn't count as a guide of how to figure out what to do in tier 4, I'm not sure that anything which would fit between the covers of a WotC-quality and complained about but still paid price point book would suffice.

I think it'd be great if WotC thought there was a market for a book that did nothing but provide advice on the various ins-and-outs of DMing, especially if it didn't end up with a title like Dungeon Master for Dummies this time around. I just don't think them trying to sell an adventure that is also meant to serve as that advice is a worthy alternative to that. And I have no idea how much of a market there actually is for a book that just gives advice on how to DM, because I know I didn't buy either of the D&D "for dummies" books, and I've seen both a lot of people insisting advice is needed and people refusing to accept any advice.

 

[nswanson27]

If a published story-line that covers the first three tiers, introduces various setting elements, NPCs, and story hooks that it doesn't wrap up all in a neat bow by leaving no unanswered questions by its end doesn't count as a guide of how to figure out what to do in tier 4, I'm not sure that anything which would fit between the covers of a WotC-quality and complained about but still paid price point book would suffice.

Well I was referring to the combat-balance part, which you cannot infer from lower tiers.

 

[Parmandur]

The page and a half of epic level options in the DMG barely counts as support, and there are very few monsters in the MM that can stand up to even a halfway optimized party that uses feats/MCing/artifacts/epic boons/UA material. At 20th level my group took out Orcus (from OotA) in 2 rounds - very anticlimactic, especially considering the lead up to the fight involved visiting the Far Realm and time travel.

Yes, I would prefer a 100% DIY game, but I do not have the time for that anymore. If they are going to make a game with levels 1-20, they should support all 20 of those levels. Right now only 1-10 has any real support and it's frustrating.

Epic for 5E is tier 4, which is provided for in guidelines for adventure building; after 20, the bell curve goes straight up.