D&D 5E I think the era of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons had it right. (not talking about the rules).

I have a very simple rule for that: conversing with the GM before/after making the character and leveling up. I expect the same from my players when GMing.

My opinion is that the 3e/PF system is pretty modular. A couple of feats and/or spells per character, or an archetype is not so much a material the GM couldn't keep up with, IMO.

If the specific thing the player want to use uses a specific subsystem my game doesn't using, like for example sanity-specific things from PF's Horror adventures when the game isn't using the sanity rules, in that case it is simply off-limit, because without the additional system the whole thing is moot.

But taking a feat from here, a spell from there, I don't see it as big a problem, especially with the PRD. In the recent 3.5 underdark game I'm playing in i made my character from literally 5 books and the GM had zero problems with that and he's a very casual one, with many other responsibilities and a little child etc. I was just upfront with my character and shared with him where i got this and that from. It's not even a low-level game, we're 7th level without taking into account the more powerful races.

We did plenty of that, and it wasn't a problem at all times, but it was often enough to be an issue. Plus, playtesting isn't retroactive. Pathfinder added all kinds of crazy content as they went along....but their old modules and adventure paths were not designed or playtested with the later options in mind. So it becomes very hard to predict the impact all the new options may have on any older material. I found that to be a particular problem in Pathfinder with classes like the Alchemist and Summoner and Gunslinger. All cool concepts, but really drastically different in design from the core classes.
 

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Fair enough. My bad. As I said, I had already moved on, so I was going off a quick look at the class in question.
I mean no spite here, it's just funny because the phb ranger is the strongest class in he game, and only got stronger the mor material came out, and a lot of ppl were frustrated with how "weak" the Seeker was. (Warden was like a defender barbarian, Seeker was a Primal archer with control powers)

the seeker was really fun fun to play though.

I can can tell you this for a fact. Nothing in 4e is invalidated by later published material. Errata is the only invalidation that happened. The phb 1 classes, except the warlock, were the strongest classes through the entire life of 4e, and essentials was entirely comparable with the rest of 4e.
 

it may very well be that my assessment regarding 4E is off. It was attmitedly limited, and much of it came second hand once we abandoned the edition for Pathfinder.

<snip>

I'm much more familiar with Pathfinder, and I do think that the crunch bloat was much more of an issue for my group in that game. We enjoyed it for a few years...but then eventually, it just started getting out of hand, and issues started coming up.
Pathfinder added all kinds of crazy content as they went along....but their old modules and adventure paths were not designed or playtested with the later options in mind. So it becomes very hard to predict the impact all the new options may have on any older material. I found that to be a particular problem in Pathfinder with classes like the Alchemist and Summoner and Gunslinger. All cool concepts, but really drastically different in design from the core classes.
My own experience of 4e is that it mostly avoided this issue, because even later classes are built out of common elements, and on a common template, put in place at the start of the game. (I guess this is the so-called "samey-ness" of 4e - though that's not how I would describe it myself.)

The main exceptions to the above would be (i) Essentials classes that replace dailies with static bonuses, but all accounts suggest that this is a weakening, not a strengthening, and that is consistent with my experience experience of how the game plays; and (ii) psionic classes with "encounter" powers that can be spammed via power points. (The non-spammability of most 4e powers is an important balancing tool.) I have just started a Dark Sun game with a Battlemind PC and so am expecting to encounter issue (ii). I'm hoping it won't break the game.

One thing that seemed to be big in the 4e community, but that I never really got on board with, is that a class is "weak" or "underdone" simply because not much supplemental material is published for it. This was true for some classes (eg STR paladins, as I mentioned), but generally if the original material is properly designed and balanced then that should be sufficient for a viable class, even if it reduces replay value. But because my group tends to run long campaigns, replay value is not such a big deal. In our 8th year of playing 4e we've just started a new game, and so the issue of "doubling up" on old builds hasn't arisen at all, and doesn't depend on a wide range of splat to avoid it. So in that sense the splat is just options, not necessary for enjoying the game.

But anyway, as I posted above, preferences about all this stuff are just that - preferences. They can be fun to talk about, but I don't think they're any sort of basis for ranting or complaining.
 

I've already explained what I meant. When playing Pathfinder, my players would randomly pick up books (or just find options on the PFSRD) that I was unfamiliar with, and that would affect my game. They'd have feats or class options that I had no idea about. I would then feel like I had to keep up with all the books in order to understand what options my players may bring to the table. Because if one of them spent money on a book, the last thing I'd want to do is tell them they can't use it. But ultimately, it was too much for me to be able to keep track of even if I had the books. So 5E has proven to be a great approach for me.
I didn't play 3E/PF/4E, and this is partly why. The sheer number of books and options was a huge barrier to entry. 5E's slower, saner release schedule is the only reason I'm a D&D player today. It took a lot of convincing, too, because I wasn't ready to trust Wizards at first. What finally won me over was when they explicitly said that they weren't going to flood the market this time around, because they (finally) realized it was bad for business. Good on them.
 

The phb 1 classes, except the warlock, were the strongest classes through the entire life of 4e, and essentials was entirely comparable with the rest of 4e.
We haven't seen much warlock in play, but the degree of difficulty for playing a warlock well is clearly much higher than some other characters. Archer ranger, on the other hand, is both easy to play and mechanically very effective.

I think that's a good design - make the easy stuff effective, and make the people who like more intricate stuff have to work to get their character to really sing. It means a player doesn't get doubly rewarded for enjoying the fiddly bits.
 


Did you play AD&D? Some other RPG? Or completely new to RPGing with 5e?
I played AD&D (1E and 2E) and Shadowrun during the 90s, but gave up tabletop games around 2000. Finally came back to D&D this year. 5E is my favorite edition so far.
 

@doctorbadwolf and @pemerton Thanks for clarifying on 4E. I'm far from an expert on that edition, and clearly my assumptions were based on incomplete info. And probably my own bias.

I didn't play 3E/PF/4E, and this is partly why. The sheer number of books and options was a huge barrier to entry. 5E's slower, saner release schedule is the only reason I'm a D&D player today. It took a lot of convincing, too, because I wasn't ready to trust Wizards at first. What finally won me over was when they explicitly said that they weren't going to flood the market this time around, because they (finally) realized it was bad for business. Good on them.

I agree. Slow and steady expansion seems the best way to go.
 

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