D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[Zardnaar]

There is no way for a party of standard point buy 7th level PCs that those encounters are 'easy'. They all present a moderate resource drain that should (by the time the 7th encounter is triggered) have them very low on spells and resources indeed.

The Remoraz alone deals over 50 damage at +11 to hit with swallow whole (has 200 odd HP at AC 17), and they have to fight that after dealing with 6 encounters, including with a mage (with fireball and counter spell), a dragon (breath weapon and flight), several orcs (including a caster), ettins, displacer beasts etc.

Assuming you run the encounters appropriately.

You describe the Remoraz bursting out of the ground and roaring, you place the miniature 20' away from them on the board and say 'roll initiative'. On its turn it moves to a PC and eats him or her.

7th level clerics fully healed are on what... (assuming Con 12) 45 HP at an AC of 18ish? Barring some pretty cruddy luck, it eats a PC each turn. Its immune to fireball.

In my games (with very experienced players and optimised PCs) they would be challenged.

Am I missing something here? Whats the magic item load out on this group, and are you letting them roll stats?

That's was default array. Last remorahaz we fought we fought I think my monk shut it down with sentinel and the kids thing granting disadvantage.

They are not immune to the blindness spell either or hypnotic pattern.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's was default array. Last remorahaz we fought we fought I think my monk shut it down with sentinel and the kids thing granting disadvantage.

Why was it moving and not eating the monk? The monk takes 3d6 fire damage just from punching it.

They are not immune to the blindness spell either or hypnotic pattern.

Blindness imposes disadvantage on its attack rolls. With +11 to hit, this isnt a massive deal. Hypnotic pattern even if it makes its Wisdom save on a 15+ and the spell stops if it takes any damage. Im not sure how many 3rd level slots a party of 7th level PCs has remaining after 6 encounters (including against a Mage with counterspell and a Red Dragon).

The two clerics dont have it on their list, so its down to the Bard and the Wizard. Surely the Orcs, displacer beasts, ettins, bandits and mage have sucked a fair few fireballs (and maybe a counter spell or two) etc out of the Wizard at least.

I have a feeling I could run those encoutners against your players with those PCs and they'd be challenged. It probably comes down to a difference in our DMing style and how we handle encounters.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why was it moving and not eating the monk? The monk takes 3d6 fire damage just from punching it.



Blindness imposes disadvantage on its attack rolls. With +11 to hit, this isnt a massive deal. Hypnotic pattern even if it makes its Wisdom save on a 15+ and the spell stops if it takes any damage. Im not sure how many 3rd level slots a party of 7th level PCs has remaining after 6 encounters (including against a Mage with counterspell and a Red Dragon).

The two clerics dont have it on their list, so its down to the Bard and the Wizard. Surely the Orcs, displacer beasts, ettins, bandits and mage have sucked a fair few fireballs (and maybe a counter spell or two) etc out of the Wizard at least.

I have a feeling I could run those encoutners against your players with those PCs and they'd be challenged. It probably comes down to a difference in our DMing style and how we handle encounters.

Do you have the official adventures? Hotel has a CR 13 encounter for level 7 PCS.

The encounter guidelines do not work. I think the monk stunned the Remoraz and sacked up the damage.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Do you have the official adventures? Hotel has a CR 13 encounter for level 7 PCS.

The encounter guidelines do not work.

That something besides the encounter guidelines is used in the official modules is not evidence of whether or not the encounter guidelines work.

The encounter guidelines do work - it's just that the thing they present themselves as doing, and do successfully, isn't what some people are expecting them to do or want them to do

 

[Flamestrike]

The encounter guidelines do not work.

Yes they do. I use them all the time in campaigns with different players of different experience levels.

Again; feel free to create 5 x 5th level PCs (of your choice) and I'll happily run them through an adventure using the encounter guidelines and I bet you I'll challenge the crap out of them.

Youll even have the advantage of running them all yourself, so they'll work in a perfect team.

Its a difference in our DMing style IMO that makes it not work for you, not in the encounter guidelines.

I think the monk stunned the Remoraz and sacked up the damage.

Fair enough. He obviously has Ki left (after 2 big fights since his last short rest) and the Remorahz fails a Con save at +5. A Rhemoraz is getting hit by the monk on a 10+ (assuming +7 to hit) and is failing the save on a 9- (roughly 25 percent chance to stun it). Assuming a fail, its stunned for 1 turn.

The punch on the Remoraz deals as much damage to the monk as it does to the Remoraz. The monk can only afford to hit it three or four times before punching it kills him.

By contrast the Remoraz attacks the Monk at +11 vs an AC of around 16-17, killing (and swallowing) the monk on an average hit (even assuming the Monk is at full HP after 6 fights that day).

Im not saying the Monk cant do it, its just the odds are in the Remorazes favor quite strongly. Simply winning initiative is pretty much all it takes.

 

[Flamestrike]

Do you have the official adventures? Hotel has a CR 13 encounter for level 7 PCS.

CR 13 = 10,000 XP

Its a deadly encounter for 5 x 7th level PCs (8,500 XP+)

Acceptable, but you wouldnt want to throw too many at a party, and they should generally be avoided (due to the high probability of PC death or TPK, particularly if the party are resource low).

You up for a quick test of 5E's encounter guidelines? Gimme a rough 5th level party and we can run them through a quick series of encounters if you want?

 

[pemerton]

A PC who has sub-optimal statistics / game mechanics may still be optimal for fun / story. Flawed heroes are generally much more interesting than ideals. C.f. the characters in any book or film.

A PC who has game mechanics flaws is the easiest flawed hero to make.

In books or films, flawed characters don't get what they want, at least at first. In RPGing, the equivalent of this is failing a check. Unfortunately D&D has never had especially robust mechanics, or GM guidelines, for handling failure. For instance, if the default consequence for failing a combat encounter is "PCs are dead", you won't get the dynamics of those books or films. Or, if the default consequence for failure is "You don't get to the next bit of the gameworld where the action is taking place", you won't get the dynamics of those books or films.

In classic D&D, for instance, where running away was an accepted tactic (and was supported by rules for evasion and pursuit), the dynamic that resulted wasn't that of a book or a film. The PCs ran away and then engaged in planning, preparation, further scouting, etc, so as to have another go.

That sort of operational play can be fun, but it isn't reflective of most books or films, and it doesn't depend upon having flawed characters either.

 

[Flamestrike]

In books or films, flawed characters don't get what they want, at least at first. In RPGing, the equivalent of this is failing a check. Unfortunately D&D has never had especially robust mechanics, or GM guidelines, for handling failure. For instance, if the default consequence for failing a combat encounter is "PCs are dead", you won't get the dynamics of those books or films. Or, if the default consequence for failure is "You don't get to the next bit of the gameworld where the action is taking place", you won't get the dynamics of those books or films.

In classic D&D, for instance, where running away was an accepted tactic (and was supported by rules for evasion and pursuit), the dynamic that resulted wasn't that of a book or a film. The PCs ran away and then engaged in planning, preparation, further scouting, etc, so as to have another go.

That sort of operational play can be fun, but it isn't reflective of most books or films, and it doesn't depend upon having flawed characters either.

Or the Player could roleplay those flaws.

There is even a mechanical award for doing so in 5E (inspiration)

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes they do. I use them all the time in campaigns with different players of different experience levels.

Again; feel free to create 5 x 5th level PCs (of your choice) and I'll happily run them through an adventure using the encounter guidelines and I bet you I'll challenge the crap out of them.

Youll even have the advantage of running them all yourself, so they'll work in a perfect team.

Its a difference in our DMing style IMO that makes it not work for you, not in the encounter guidelines.



Fair enough. He obviously has Ki left (after 2 big fights since his last short rest) and the Remorahz fails a Con save at +5. A Rhemoraz is getting hit by the monk on a 10+ (assuming +7 to hit) and is failing the save on a 9- (roughly 25 percent chance to stun it). Assuming a fail, its stunned for 1 turn.

The punch on the Remoraz deals as much damage to the monk as it does to the Remoraz. The monk can only afford to hit it three or four times before punching it kills him.

By contrast the Remoraz attacks the Monk at +11 vs an AC of around 16-17, killing (and swallowing) the monk on an average hit (even assuming the Monk is at full HP after 6 fights that day).

Im not saying the Monk cant do it, its just the odds are in the Remorazes favor quite strongly. Simply winning initiative is pretty much all it takes.

Monks did not solo it stunned it fighter with sharpshooter action surged as stun grants advantage and everyone else shot it.

 

[pemerton]

Or the Player could roleplay those flaws.

There is even a mechanical award for doing so in 5E (inspiration)

If the player plays the flaws, but it makes no difference to the outcomes of events - ie the play of the flaws doesn't lead to trouble/failure - then personally I think it becomes a bit weak.

(Which is bracketing the question - what exactly does it mean to roleplay a 12 STR or 8 CON or whatever?)