D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[Corwin]

I would play a gimped spellcaster that would be as effective as I could make it. Basically I would be playing support so a cleric casting bless and guidance or a wizard casting mage armor on others. Your cantrips might be a bit meh with only 1 to hit/DC's

I think its important to note that you never expressed a desire to play the spellcaster. Only the impression that you would resign yourself to do so. What about playing something you *wanted* to play? Don't you think your friends would want you to play something that interested you?

I let my players roll if they want to, if another DM and if you roll crap you live with the consequences. I'm talking about pumpkins using the default array and deliberately picking low stats in their primary ability which I have seen happen without a good plan B.

Is this even really a thing? Or a boogieman problem invented to scare the players into behaving as you want them to?

And maybe an actual example. You say array. Okay. Like what? What is this "pumpkin" doing with this array to make a gimpy fighter that doesn't work well enough for your standards?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

1) And unless it's Ringmail against the rules.....

The Strength numbers mentioned for some heavy armors on the armor chart are not requirements to wear that armor - they are the score at which the movement penalty caused by the armor does not apply.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think its important to note that you never expressed a desire to play the spellcaster. Only the impression that you would resign yourself to do so. What about playing something you *wanted* to play? Don't you think your friends would want you to play something that interested you?


Is this even really a thing? Or a boogieman problem invented to scare the players into behaving as you want them to?

And maybe an actual example. You say array. Okay. Like what? What is this "pumpkin" doing with this array to make a gimpy fighter that doesn't work well enough for your standards?

I enjoy the 5E character design and there a re a lot of things I want to play so I am more or less happy to play anything. I DM mostly and rarely get to to play so I am fine with anything.

The only thing I do not want to play is things like the Beastmaster Ranger and some of the EN5ider classes or Elemental Monks.

Out of the 38 subclasses I would be happy to play at least 30 of them if not 35. My players often pick a class after I do the vanguard it as they did not know how to play some things like Valor Bards and Monks, Rangers to a lesser extent.

I was the 1st to play a Monk, Valor Bard, Light Cleric an they are now popular choices in our group. I was also the one that spotted the bladelock build that worked and the shield master thing. They spotted stuff I missed so its all good.

I'm the guy who often gets stuck with the Cleric/Priest (which I did not mind in 2E, 3E or 5E).

Throw me some hypothetical examples and I can tell you what I would pick. Just LMK if its point buy or if feats are allowed.

 

[Corwin]

I enjoy the 5E character design and there a re a lot of things I want to play so I am more or less happy to play anything. I DM mostly and rarely get to to play so I am fine with anything.

The only thing I do not want to play is things like the Beastmaster Ranger and some of the EN5ider classes or Elemental Monks.

Out of the 38 subclasses I would be happy to play at least 30 of them if not 35. My players often pick a class after I do the vanguard it as they did not know how to play some things like Valor Bards and Monks, Rangers to a lesser extent.

I was the 1st to play a Monk, Valor Bard, Light Cleric an they are now popular choices in our group. I was also the one that spotted the bladelock build that worked and the shield master thing. They spotted stuff I missed so its all good.

I'm the guy who often gets stuck with the Cleric/Priest (which I did not mind in 2E, 3E or 5E).

Throw me some hypothetical examples and I can tell you what I would pick. Just LMK if its point buy or if feats are allowed.

This is getting a little deep into the weeds at this point. None of this is really applicable to the point I've been making. This game was never designed around what you want to play, nor how.

Likewise, all you have been able to prove WRT the topic of this thread, is that these feats don't appeal to your table's playstyle. That's all. We only ask that you stop speaking for those of us who disagree with your subjective conclusions.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is getting a little deep into the weeds at this point. None of this is really applicable to the point I've been making. This game was never designed around what you want to play, nor how.

Likewise, all you have been able to prove WRT the topic of this thread, is that these feats don't appeal to your table's playstyle. That's all. We only ask that you stop speaking for those of us who disagree with your subjective conclusions.

That is fine we do not even use those feat all of the time and if we do we may not buff the person using it as we do not always have a cleric for example.

I'm just saying if you want to break those feats or make the most of them here is how you do it.

Generally I appreciate it if somoene decides to take a punt at DMing and if they are new at it give them a break. I do not undermine them or say things like "thats not I would do". One of my players did ask me for advice about his DMing style and I did say something along the lines of here is what I would do (he was handing out +2 great weapons to the fighters using GWM while everyone else got the shaft).

Generally I do not enable the big hitters to much I would be more inclined to put a +3 dagger into the game than a +1 great sword.

A Monk for example with the lucky feat might find a staff of striking over the GWM power gamer twink build getting a great magic weapon.

Magic arrows are a bit more common than magic bows and magic hand crossbows are very rare for some strange reason.

 

[ccs]

I don't see why you would have a PC like that as you are intentionally making your PC quite gimped and weakening the party.),

Well most likely because that's what the dice (+ race/lv mods) gave me.
My preferred creation method is rolling. Sometimes the dice-gods giveth, sometimes they don't. Sure, I'm always hoping to roll super high or even perfectly (perfect btw is the one combo that I've never gotten in 35 years of doing this). But I'm absolutely willing & able to play whatever I roll. Hell, I'll even roll 'em straight down the line.

Sometimes though it might just be a whim. I've been doing this for a long time. I know I can play virtually any combo & have fun - both mechanically & RP-wise. I also know that my exact +/- will not affect the fun of the other people I'm gaming with.

I've also been known to just throw away pts that exceed my vision of a character & take a lower stat.

I might also prioritize my stats in ways that others would not. (for ex; I have a PF Cavalier - a very melee oriented class - whose highest stat is intentionally Cha. His 2nd highest stat is a tie between Con/Wis & his 3rd highest is Str {before magic items}. He's built as a leader 1st & foremost. He's very good at it & that's important to RP side of the game being played.)

if player was doing that deliberately in my experience there will be other issues that will crop up later with that player. I have seen this every time. They might be a hard core role player who thinks combat is beneath them (why play D&D then?) or prefers pretending they are a Vampire or some stupid crap or they like Paranoia RPG where screwing with other players is inherent to the system. There are other RPGs and groups for that type of thing. IN every single case those types of players are better off in another group in my experience so you may as well boot them and save everyone some sort of aggravation.

Really, you'd project all that crap onto someone for making a Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail?

Would it blow your mind if I told you I'm running a Warlock who doesn't have EB?

If you roll stats and roll crap that is different. I have seen PCs with 3 +1 modifiers as their best stats (not in 5E),

So:
A Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail - fine if rolled up randomly.
A Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail - not fine if intentionally chosen.
Never mind that both have the same personality, backstory, & potential for growth/RP....

 

[ccs]

The Strength numbers mentioned for some heavy armors on the armor chart are not requirements to wear that armor - they are the score at which the movement penalty caused by the armor does not apply.

I stand corrected on that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well most likely because that's what the dice (+ race/lv mods) gave me.
My preferred creation method is rolling. Sometimes the dice-gods giveth, sometimes they don't. Sure, I'm always hoping to roll super high or even perfectly (perfect btw is the one combo that I've never gotten in 35 years of doing this). But I'm absolutely willing & able to play whatever I roll. Hell, I'll even roll 'em straight down the line.

Sometimes though it might just be a whim. I've been doing this for a long time. I know I can play virtually any combo & have fun - both mechanically & RP-wise. I also know that my exact +/- will not affect the fun of the other people I'm gaming with.

I've also been known to just throw away pts that exceed my vision of a character & take a lower stat.

I might also prioritize my stats in ways that others would not. (for ex; I have a PF Cavalier - a very melee oriented class - whose highest stat is intentionally Cha. His 2nd highest stat is a tie between Con/Wis & his 3rd highest is Str {before magic items}. He's built as a leader 1st & foremost. He's very good at it & that's important to RP side of the game being played.)



Really, you'd project all that crap onto someone for making a Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail?

Would it blow your mind if I told you I'm running a Warlock who doesn't have EB?




So:
A Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail - fine if rolled up randomly.
A Str.12, Dex.8, fighter wearing Ringmail - not fine if intentionally chosen.
Never mind that both have the same personality, backstory, & potential for growth/RP....

One is making the best of a bad situation the other is deliberately making that bad situation.
I would let it fly just don't complain if you die due to a bad decision and if you get someone else killed because of that decision then we would have an issue.

 

[Lehrbuch]

I don't see why you would have a PC like that [terrible stats] as you are intentionally making your PC quite gimped and weakening the party....IN every single case those types of players are better off in another group in my experience so you may as well boot them and save everyone some sort of aggravation.

A PC who has sub-optimal statistics / game mechanics may still be optimal for fun / story. Flawed heroes are generally much more interesting than ideals. C.f. the characters in any book or film.

A PC who has game mechanics flaws is the easiest flawed hero to make.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm not saying you have to break the game or play this way but if you want to abuse those feats that is how you do it. Bless is a big offender and advantage effects which most classes can get in some way or another combined with multiple attacks.

I'm not really convinced that it is an abuse given how heavily it relies on teamwork. This isn't taking X levels of class A, Y levels of class B, as well as combining feats J and K in order to produce a character who can dish out 500% of the damage that the next highest damage dealer can do. It's the group building a team whose abilities complement each other effectively. Think about it this way; a team of 5 evoker wizards would be able to trivialize a lot of encounters just by launching an overwhelming number of fireballs every round. That's an average of 105 DPR per creature to potentially every enemy (assuming ideal positioning). It becomes 300 DPR per creature once they get overchannel. Due to sculpt spell, they don't even need to concern themselves with friendly fire. (See what I did there?) Admittedly, it wouldn't be too difficult to craft an encounter to absolutely wreck this team, but so simplistic that it makes GWM + SS + Bless + FF look like a sophisticated strategy by comparison.

If you have a choice between hititng 80%5 % of the time and 60% of the time with +10 damage the math heavily favours the +10 damage option.

Absolutely. However, 60% accuracy with a -5 penalty isn't a given even with Bless and FF. Without them, it's wishful thinking against plenty of enemies. As your accuracy drops, the math favors the +10 damage option less and less until it effectively becomes a damage penalty.

Even when the math favors the +10 damage option, it isn't always the best choice. The math can only indicate the odds, which aren't necessarily true over the short term (such as a single combat). An unlucky turn or two might find you missing with every attack due to that -5. That can turn an easy fight into a hard one, or a hard one into a potential TPK.