D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[Leatherhead]

3) Just make the monsters harder. Silly point. I shouldn't have to balance the game by changing CR challenges.

No, the game was specifically balanced around not having these feats. Changing the game around whatever optional rules you opt-in to is intended.
Having people complain about these feats being OP when they don't change anything else about their game is like having people complain about how their IKEA chairs fall apart when they skip the bit in the instructions where they need to use screws.

 

[Flamestrike]

Monks did not solo it stunned it fighter with sharpshooter action surged as stun grants advantage and everyone else shot it.

Your fighter had an action surge up his sleeve as well eh?

Note how in the encounter I posted, the party have dealt with 6 encounters already that day, and 2 before they last short rested?

Like I said, multiple encounters drains the parties resources evenly through the day.

DnD is a resource management game (mechanically). Its the DMs job to enforce it. If he doesnt, it becomes a glorified game of rocket tag, and the encounter guideleines (and class balance) go down the toilet.

 

[Flamestrike]

If the player plays the flaws, but it makes no difference to the outcomes of events - ie the play of the flaws doesn't lead to trouble/failure - then personally I think it becomes a bit weak.

(Which is bracketing the question - what exactly does it mean to roleplay a 12 STR or 8 CON or whatever?)

Flaws arent just 'bad stats'.

A flawed PC could be one that always tells the truth, or who trusts no-one, or is evil or whatever.

 

[pemerton]

Flaws arent just 'bad stats'.

I was replying to a post (number 99 upthread) which I will requote:

A PC who has sub-optimal statistics / game mechanics may still be optimal for fun / story. Flawed heroes are generally much more interesting than ideals. C.f. the characters in any book or film.

A PC who has game mechanics flaws is the easiest flawed hero to make.

You will see that the post (i) was discussing "bad stats", (ii) equated sub-optimal mechanical effectiveness to being a "flawed hero", and (iii) identified the easiest form of "flawed hero" to make as one that is mechanical less than optimally effective.

I stand by my reply to that post: flaws manifested by way of game-mechanical sub-optimality will result in failure; and this is the RPG equivalent to the flawed heroes of those movies and films not, at least at first, getting what they want. And while it is possible to have a good RPG in which it is expected that PCs will fail frequently, in part due to their flaws, and that these failures will drive the action, D&D is not in general such an RPG, due to its lack of support (both mechanics and guidelines) for dealing with failure.

 

[Zardnaar]

CR 13 = 10,000 XP

Its a deadly encounter for 5 x 7th level PCs (8,500 XP+)

Acceptable, but you wouldnt want to throw too many at a party, and they should generally be avoided (due to the high probability of PC death or TPK, particularly if the party are resource low).

You up for a quick test of 5E's encounter guidelines? Gimme a rough 5th level party and we can run them through a quick series of encounters if you want?

So you can just cherry pick a heap of high AC opponents and claim victory lol. Also 5th level is not really at the tipping point of these feats its still reasonably low there are a lot of things that come online around level 6-8 for example. You will use them on occasion but you will not have maxed dexterity to 20 for example or have that many 2nd and 4th level spell slots available.

Also how would we settle how many encounters and short rests? 6-8 encounters, I would suggest 7 with a short rest available after the 3rd encounter and 5th encounter?

Default array, point buy, multiclassing? RAW I get to roll dice as well.

In any event this is a completely artificial thing. I use real games of D&D using the prepublished adventures both 3pp and WotC produced and they do not use customised encounters to shut down or metagame against whatever 5 members of 5th level I conjure up.

Throwing a heap of AC 18 critters at the problem doesn't prove a lot for example. I would not mind a selection of foes going up to AC 18 or 20 or whatever but see previous comment about metagaming specifically against the PCs. What magic items do I get would be another thing. LMoP ones, none?

 

[Flamestrike]

So you can just cherry pick a heap of high AC opponents and claim victory lol.

Thats not how I design encounters. It'll be a mix. I dont design encounters to kerb stomp PCs, but to challenge them (and occasionally to allow them to show off abilities).

Also 5th level is not really at the tipping point of these feats its still reasonably low. You will use them on occasion but you will not have maxed dexterity to 20 for example or have that many 2nd and 4th level spell slots available.

Alright, how about 9th level then? Thats enough for 2 ASI (3 if human, 4 for fighters). More than enough room to max a stat and grab one of those feats.

Also how would we settle how many encounters and short rests? 6-8 encounters, I would suggest 7 with a short rest available after the 3rd encounter and 5th encounter?

It'll be 6-8 with opportunities to short rest. Im sticking to the guidelines in the DMG (with some liberties taken of course; its an art not an exact science).

Default array, point buy, multiclassing? RAW I get to roll dice as well.

Yes, yes and go for it. All published WoTC books, and I'll even throw you some magic items as well. Ill pick a few when I see the PCs.

HP and stats as per the book. Just let me know any feats, or class choices youve made (manouvers, F/S, key equipment, spells known).

I picked 5th because its quick, but I can do 9th as well.

In any event this is a completely artificial thing. I use real games of D&D using the prepublished adventures both 3pp and WotC produced and they do not use customised encounters to shut down or metagame against whatever 5 members of 5th level I conjure up.

Im not trying to 'shut down' or 'metagame' anything. DMs cant metagame, and they certainly can't during encounter design. Their job is do design encounters that challenge and entertain the players (and their characters) as presented.

Im just trying to show you that the encounter guidelines in the DMG work. Ill take your party put forward, and design an adventure, following the guideleines in the DMG that will challenge that party.

Not kill them. Not kerb stomp them. But not be a cakewalk either. A challenging adventure using the DMG guidelines for encounter design.

The point isnt to troll you. Its to show you how the system works when you know how to use it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Obviously if GWM and SS are so broken I expect to see 5 fighters with SS and/or GWM.

I have a feeling its going to be 5 casters though. Just a hunch.

 

[Flamestrike]

Default array, point buy, multiclassing? RAW I get to roll dice as well.

Lets go with 4 x 9th level PCs (a smaller party). It'll save you some time. I can do 5 if you want.

Is that OK?

 

[Zardnaar]

Lets go with 4 x 9th level PCs (a smaller party). It'll save you some time. I can do 5 if you want.

Is that OK?

You want an entire PC created? We do this on Roll d20 or something like that lol.
My party (all variant human)

Fighter 1/Warlock 8, GWM, fiend pact, 18 strength, 16 charisma
Paladin 6/Sorcerer 3 Oath of the Ancients. 18 strength, shieldmaster,
Lore Bard 9, Spellsniper feat (eldritch blast) steals hex and counterspell, 18 charisma, warcaster
Light Cleric 9, 18 wisdom, healer feat, warcaster feat
Fighter 6 (battlemaster), War cleric 3, 20 dex sharpshooter

 

[Flamestrike]

Fighter 1/Warlock 8, GWM, fiend pact, 18 strength, 16 charisma

Spells and invocations known?

He can have a wounding (Great weapon of choice) and a set of full plate and a rod of the pact keeper +1. 3 potions of healing.

Paladin 6/Sorcerer 3 Oath of the Ancients. 18 strength, shieldmaster,

Spells, metamagic and sorcrous bloodline?

+1 shield, weapon of warning (pick one) and non magical armor of choice. 3 potions of healing.

Lore Bard 9, Spellsniper feat (eldritch blast) steals hex and counterspell, 18 charisma, warcaster

Spells known?

Hewards handy haversack, winged boots, cape of the montebank. NM weapons and armor. 3 potions of healing.

Light Cleric 9, 18 wisdom, healer feat, warcaster feat

Domain and spells?

3 potions of healing. 2 potions of greater healing. Mace of disruption, periapt of proof against poison. NM equipment of choice.

Fighter 6 (battlemaster), War cleric 3, 20 dex sharpshooter

Manouvers and spells?

Bracers of archery, ring of evasion, 5 x +2 arrows. 3 potions of healing.